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Thursday, October 3, 2013

Negotiation Expert Weighs In On Washington Stalemate

With the negotiations between Democrats and Republicans stalled in Washington, D.C., Here & Now turns to a negotiation expert.

We ask, what would get both parties to agree?





And on the third day of the government shutdown, Democrats and Republicans seemed no closer in Washington. Here is Republican House Speaker John Boehner after meeting the president at the White House last night.

REPRESENTATIVE JOHN BOEHNER: The president reiterated one more time tonight that he will not negotiate. We've got divided government. Democrats control the White House and the Senate. Republicans control the House. We sent four different proposals over to our Democrat colleagues in the Senate. They rejected all of them.

HOBSON: Meanwhile, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said it was Boehner who, quote, "couldn't take yes for answer." He was referring to President Obama's position that he's willing to negotiate after Congress has taken action. Here's the president talking to John Harwood on CNBC.


PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: As soon as we get a clean piece of legislation that reopens the government - and there is a majority for that right now in the House of...

JOHN HARWOOD: But no negotiation until after that?

OBAMA: Until we get that done, until we make sure that that Congress allows Treasury to pay for things that Congress itself already authorized, we are not going to engage in a series of negotiations.

HOBSON: So how do you get two sides this far apart to reach an agreement? We called an expert, Robert Mnookin. He's professor and chair of the Program on Negotiation at Harvard Law School. His latest book is "Bargaining with the Devil: When to Negotiate, When to Fight." Mr. Mnookin, thanks for coming in.

ROBERT MNOOKIN: It's my pleasure to be here, Jeremy.

HOBSON: Well, so what do you hear here on the issue of negotiation? A side saying they don't want to negotiate until this happens or this side is not willing to negotiate. Is it appropriate right now for the president to negotiate with House Republicans?

MNOOKIN: Well, I think what's going on now is both sides are really playing a game of chicken. On the one hand, the president is saying without a clean budget and a debt ceiling increase, I won't consider doing anything else. And on the other side, the House is saying you should be prepared to negotiate. After all, you're negotiating with Syria. You're negotiating with Iran. Why not with the House?

HOBSON: Well, so what would you tell them at this point? Both sides are saying they are in the right and their opponents are wrong.

MNOOKIN: Well, I think the problem with the game of chicken is that it's like two cars driven by teenagers heading towards an intersection. And what both sides - each side is trying to do is convince the other they're not going to swerve. And they're each trying to credibly commit at kind of maintaining their position. In fact, for the country, this is a very dangerous game.

HOBSON: Does the threat help - the threat of a government shutdown, which obviously has come to pass now, does that help lead to a solution in any way?

MNOOKIN: Well, it's a little bit like in a labor dispute having a strike or in a dispute over a contract, if you and I have a dispute over a contract, someone threatening to file suit and then filing suit. In fact, it's the beginning of a process that can be a very costly for both sides. And what's characteristic of a threat is if you have to carry it out, the person making the threat is damaged too. And that's why, after the fact, there's often the temptation to try to find some way to back down.

HOBSON: Well, this is something that we've heard from lawmakers that we have spoken to. I spoke with a Republican last week who said, well - I said, well, President Obama says he's not going to negotiate, for example, over raising the debt ceiling. He said, well, he did last time.

MNOOKIN: And it's true. I mean, President Obama - I think part of the reason he's trying to be so firm is that during the first term, he was really was prepared to negotiate, and he didn't get much from it. And therefore, he thinks I've got to sort of credibly now establish a reputation for someone who's not going to.

I, nonetheless, think there's an ambiguity in the word negotiate, and I disapprove in one respect of what the president is saying. He's saying, without meeting these pre-conditions, I won't even sit down and talk seriously. That, in my view, is a mistake.

HOBSON: Hmm. You think he should be sitting down and talking even if the pre-conditions are not met?

MNOOKIN: I think he should be doing that or someone from the administration should be doing it, probably secretly to the extent that's possible. But it's a little bit like - I'm reminded very much - Nelson Mandela, who's one of my heroes, after being in jail for a number of years and when the ANC, his party, the African National Congress, had a policy that no negotiations with the South African government until they made lawful both the - our political party and the Communist Party, until they dismantle the apartheid, only after they did those things will we negotiate about what the constitutional structure should be in the future.

Now, in fact all the time people are making preconditions - which essentially ask the other side to capitulate - before they'll even sit down. I think far better to see if, in fact, in a problem-solving way, you can't discover some options that don't require capitulation.

HOBSON: And, of course, none of this happens in a vacuum. We've just had this situation with Syria and the famous redline that was set out over chemical weapons, and then no use of force in the end - at least so far. But do you think that that has played into what's going on here?

MNOOKIN: You know, it's very hard to say. I think that internationally, of course, what's going on now with our government, domestically, has an international impact in terms of international finance. From the earlier reports, you know it could be - have a very substantial impact worldwide. Moreover, our power internationally is based not simply on our military, which is absolutely number one, but also on our economy. And to the extent our economy is weak, that also weakens us internationally.

HOBSON: So what do you think needs to happen here? Not just over this government shutdown battle, because it's just one of many, of course. There is a farm bill that hasn't gone through, the issue of food stamps. There's the debt ceiling coming up now. It's just issue after issue after issue that both sides cannot agree on. How can this impasse be broken?

MNOOKIN: Well, what I would do is focus on two things: One is the budget, and the second is the debt ceiling increase. I think the president was wise to tie them together. Second, I think the president - the deal that has to be made is one in which the budget and the debt ceiling increase, those two pieces of legislation really should be clean.

But what I would say, as a mediator, what I would suggest is let's find a way to, in fact, perhaps have administrative and legislative reappraisal of some aspects of Obamacare and some discussion of what's, in the past, been called the grand bargain as part - happening simultaneously.

In other words, I don't think it should be preconditioned, where the Republicans have to do it before the president makes any commitments. But what I would imagine is a scenario where both renounced at the same time.

HOBSON: Robert Mnookin is professor and chair of the Program on Negotiation at Harvard Law School. His latest book is "Bargaining with the Devil: When to Negotiate, When to Fight." Professor Mnookin, thanks so much for coming in.

MNOOKIN: Thank you so much for having me, Jeremy.

HOBSON: And, listeners, let us know what you think. What could break the impasse in Washington? Go to hereandnow.org. We'll be back in one minute. HERE AND NOW. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.

Please follow our community rules when engaging in comment discussion on this site.
  • Linda Gray

    the analogy is “two cars heading toward each other” — but the question to examine and understand is: which one is out of its lane???

    • FalkBurger

      I just have to compliment you on your pith-perfect riposte.

  • PoliticsWatcher

    The Teapublicans just have to pass a clean CR. Simple as that.

  • Ivy_B

    Too into his subject; doesn’t understand governing. Has a hammer and every problem is a nail. Just more “both sides are to blame.” He says that because Obama negotiated last time, that means he should do it this time. Circumstances have changed since then. I agree with Obama that if he bargains on this, it will harm every subsequent president.

  • Nancy Tait

    Bargaining areas: Pres. gives – 1) suspension of medical device tax 2) 6 mos. delay in ACA. GOP gives – 1) restore funding 2) raise the debt ceiling. Other bargaining areas: entitlement reform, tax reform

    • PoliticsWatcher

      Why should Obama give anything, when all the GOP has offered is taking more?

    • Zonna

      That could be a good compromise!

  • Cindy C Barnard

    All due respect, but has this person gotten his head out of a book yet? How much theory can one person take? #EnoughAlready

    There is an agenda from which the GOP will not budge. If it were possible to negotiate on any other issue, would the two sides be talking? That would be a good discussion about negotiating.

    The GOP wants to try to derail one particular law how can you negotiate that issue? That would be a good question.

    How could you take this author’s generalized, theoretical discussion and actually apply it to a real situation called the government shutdown and offer some specific ideas? That would be news and information.

  • Zonna

    I respectfully totally disagree with the Harvard professor about His opinion that pres Obama should agree to discuss concessions with John Boehner re the ACA. Success of the ACA totally depends on the individual mandate. This law must prevail!! Millions are without health care. I firmly believe the House REPUBLICANS goal is the total failure of the ACA regardless of negotiations or not. Don’t blame Obama for this impasse.

  • Workplace Massage

    I have the solution! All lawmakers and feuding parties will start their day tomorrow with a 15 minute chair massage. By lunch time they will be holding hands and singing songs of peace together. Yep, that’s it….massage for all, and all for massage!

  • FalkBurger

    Your coverage of this issue is insane. This is not a “game of chicken” as your incompetent expert suggests. Here’s a better metaphor: A gunman is menacing a woman and her baby on a bridge. He demands she throw the baby into the river. She refuses. Always on the job, NPR courageously reports, “Neither side is willing to compromise! OH my, whatever shall we do?”
    You ask a question I consider rhetorical. “What can we do to end the standoff?” Well, how about finding your spine and denouncing the gunman, i.e. John Bohner (sic). And the 30 criminals who are “forcing” him to do this. Bohner (sic) should find HIS spine and resign his position as speaker in protest of this insanity.

    • tom

      the gunman is actually two, obama and reid.

      • FalkBurger

        You’re wrong of course, and I’m beginning to suspect you and those who share your twisted ideology know you’re wrong, but you don’t care because it’s more about winning for you than truth, logic or the common good.

  • MizPat

    Professor Mnookin this IS a time to fight. You should have some knowledge of your subject before you get on national radio. The Affordable Care Act is the law upheld by the Supreme Court not a tool for embittered Republicans to use . What if this same hostage tactic was used by the opposition over Medicare, Social Security, or even civil rights. There is no negotiation. There is only a very weak Speaker and unpatriotic ideologues.


    This interview is an example of what is wrong with with journalism today — its both sides at fault. I don’t have time to read the guest’s book before commenting, but I really have to wonder when he thinks it is time to fight?

    The 30 or so hardliner Republicans are essentially acting as terrorist/hostage takers — not rational business partners. Negotiation with terrorists/hostage takers is only a delaying strategy designed to wear down their resolve/make them feel empowered until they give up on their own or until they can be overcome with violence.

    I really wish that journalist would stop trying to present both sides as equal on so many issues. By playing that game they are only emboldening the crazies — for lack of a better term.

    • MichelleBelanger

      Refusing to negotiate is a form of negotiation. Negotiating with hostage takers has also been used sucessfully as a way to get the takers to see that they are better off cooperating. Your conclusions about this being a definitive thing with only one solution/perspective indicates to me that you are not well informed on the art of negotiation. I have read a couple of the books from the Harvard Negotiation Project and have found them to be excellent resources for my own life- business and personal, and I’ve been able to help others to navigate through challenges by applying the principals I learned from these books. Getting To Yes is the foundation book, and I would recommend it to anyone, period. In this instance, what I would have liked to have asked Professor Mnookin is, let’s look at this situation from the larger perspective of it being part of a pattern of one after another manufactured crisis, all of which sabotage our economy and are driven in part, by a wish to make anything Obama does fail. It is a pattern that must be stopped. I would loved to have his insights about how to approach that larger issue, and how to then apply that approach to the current and future situations like the one we are in. I do agree, however, that it is important to not treat the action of the most extreme congressional members as though it was on equal par with all the rest of the people, including the ones who would like the opportunity for a clean vote, and to the members of the senate who invited negotiation on this budget something like 16 times before this crisis came to a head.

  • Mary

    Shame on you NPR, for falling in line with Corporate newscasts making this crisis seem like it is both sides to blame. You didn’t even challenge Mnookin’s stupid examples. This terrible situation is the fault of a bought and paid for group of fools who care nothing for the people they are hurting and President Obama is our only hope. He must stay strong!!!!

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Robin Young and Jeremy Hobson host Here & Now, a live two-hour production of NPR and WBUR Boston.

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