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Tuesday, May 28, 2013

Should Parents Be Liable If Unvaccinated Children Sicken Others?

A registered nurse, Michele Pereira is among the growing number of parents questioning the government's schedule of mandatory vaccinations for children. She poses at a park in Ashland, Ore., holding her daughter Genevieve, 2, as her daughter Evangeline, 6, plays in the background. (Jeff Barnard/AP)

A registered nurse, Michele Pereira is among the growing number of parents questioning the government’s schedule of mandatory vaccinations for children. She poses at a park in Ashland, Ore., holding her daughter Genevieve, 2, as her daughter Evangeline, 6, plays in the background. (Jeff Barnard/AP)

A measles outbreak in the New York is prompting bioethicist Art Caplan to wonder about the consequences of parents choosing not to vaccinate their children.

He argues that parents should have the right to not vaccinate, but they should also expect to be sued if their child gets someone else sick.

He writes in Harvard Law School’s Bill of Health blog:

If your kid gets the measles, and remember public health officials are getting very very good at tracing outbreaks to their source, and makes my kid sick (can happen since vaccine is not 100% effective), my newborn baby die (newborns can’t benefit from vaccines) or my wife miscarry (fetuses are at especially high risk), then shouldn’t I be able to sue you for the harm you have done?

Caplan says providing a legal avenue to hold an unvaccinated person accountable for sickening someone serves two goals.

First, it provides a measure of justice for a family that is affected by an unvaccinated person’s choice. Second, the possibility of a lawsuit would encourage individuals to get vaccinated.

Ultimately, Caplan said, this is a question about balancing individual choice with responsibility to the community.

While Caplan concedes that 100 percent compliance is impossible, he said, “to protect the population, we don’t need 100 percent, we just need 90 percent.”

Guest:


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  • Kathy

    The doctor is wrong. Parents should not have a right to endanger their children and others by not vaccinating them. They should be charged with child neglect and if their neglect causes someone else to die, they should be charged with first degree murder.

    • creaker

      Back when they were still using live polio vaccine there were cases of unvaccinated folks getting infected from the babies receiving the live vaccine. Who would be liable here?

    • Pplatplay

      Please link to double blind studies showing the effectiveness of your vaccines.  Please link to any paper proving the “herd immunity” theory.  Please relate how people living in filth Pakistan needing, wanting inoculations relates to  people in the modern world with proper sanitation.  Please explain why Japan does not inoculate until after the age of 2 and yet we require dozens before the age of two and they are ahead of us in infant mortality.  If you will investigate these questions you may find that you will change your parroted party line that “everyone requires vaccines”.

      • ChrisKid

        Check your facts.  The Japanese infant vaccination schedule is very similar to that of the U.S.  In fact, they vaccinate for Japanese encephalitis, and we don’t.  Please don’t propagate these falsehoods.

        • Chirhodes

          For a while Japan stopped vax sing 2month olds and the SIDS rate went to near zero. But the 2 year olds, now getting more vaccines got sicker. they reverted to the previous schedule for $ome reason.

          • ChrisKid

            Again, get your facts straight.  The Japanese delayed the pertussis vaccine until after 2 years of age.  The pertussis rate in infants went way up.  The rate of SIDS didn’t change.  SIDS is defined as occurring in infants under 12 months, so by definition, SIDS following pertussis vaccination at 24 months and up couldn’t occur.  It’s a ridiculous, dishonest claim made by a paleontologist with an ax to grind and a business to run.

          • Richard

            source please!!!… stop with your personal opinions

          • ChrisKid

            Figure 3. Japan’s pertussis rate (per 100,000 population).

            The Kulkenkampff paper spread quickly to Japan as well, but the Japanese response was swifter. Japan’s already active anti- vaccination proponents seized upon both the UK pertussis scare and a national debate on adverse smallpox vaccination events to alarm the public. With a growing public clamor, and the unfortunate deaths of two infants within a day of vaccination, the Okayama Prefectural Medical Association eliminated pertussis vaccination altogether in 1975. Within two years, the pertussis vaccination rate for Japanese infants nose-dived from nearly 80 percent to 10 percent. Five years into this mushrooming fiasco, Japan experienced a pertussis epidemic (figure 3) with more than 13,000 cases and forty-one deaths (Gangarosa et al. 1998).http://www.csicop.org/si/show/anti-vaccination_fever_the_shot_hurt_around_the_world/There's one, which is more than you’ve provided, even while asking me to stop posting opinions.  Care to join me with evidence?

          • Richard

            Sorry Chris.. this is not peer reviewed and I dont give the Center for Skeptical Inquiry any credibility just as you dont give the anti-vax science commentary sites any respect… so, there wont be any checkmate in this round. You are just a front organization of rogues for Big Pharm… my goodness. you have the discredited Steve Barrett on your board!!! wow!.. speaking of a vile human being.. why dont we discuss a little about your hero there?… The doctor who practiced medicine in PA for years but never passed his medical boards… do you have any idea of his recent court case going on Texas?… You just sunk your own credibility down the sewer. 

          • ChrisKid

            Nice assumption about me, there, ‘buddy’, but you’d be wrong all the way around.  I’m not even part of any organization.  As for Steve Barrett, I think you should double check your information a bit before you run over into libel territory.  His recent court case in TX?  Would that be the one where the lab sued him for pointing out that their results were questionable?  Do you have a ruling on that?  

            Anyway, before you jump to any further wrong conclusions or build any other straw men, why don’t you try actually looking at the information?  I know you find that difficult, but give it a shot.  You might learn something, everybody loves new experiences.  

          • mplo

            It seems to me, Richard, that you’re not giving people who favor vaccinating their kids against horrible diseases, and science in general, any respect either.  

            Those anti-vaccination people don’t deserve any respect, and they have to be stopped in their tracks, because if they’re allowed to keep doing what they’re doing, this country will revert to third-world status, and there’ll be more children dying from, or being crippled by horrible diseases.

          • Richard

            But Chris.. honestly, i wish to thank you for the link… you provided me with some further insights into a separate investigation i doing… thanks buddy!!.. 

        • Pplatplay

           perhaps you should check your facts “kid”

          http://www.vaclib.org/basic/japanusa.htm

          • ChrisKid

            And what, in that schedule, is not similar to the U.S. schedule?  I didn’t say they were identical.  Again, the claim was that the Japanese don’t vaccinate children under two years of age.  Checking facts shows that, obviously, they do, with many or most of the same types of vaccines used in the U.S.

        • Richard Gale

          Your facts are only partially correct. Japan doesnt give HBV to infants unless the mother is positive and then it is not recommended at all thereafter. The flu vaccine is not give to any children under 2. Finally, Japanese health officials are known for being very non-aggressive with vaccine schedules, and the Japanese in general are better educated about vaccine risks than Americans and have more freedom to delay vaccines or reject them altogether, which many do.  the Japanese people remember the debacle in the early 90s when the MMR was compulsory and there arose waves of meningitis and other serious adverse reactions in its wake. That was when the Japanese government  banned MMR in 1993 and reverted to individual shots. 

          • ChrisKid

            I didn’t say they were identical.  The claim was that Japan doesn’t vaccinate infants under 2 years of age.  That’s obviously untrue.  

  • km

    Will this moron pay lifelong benefits for my child if she/he is injured by a vaccine?

    • creaker

       There’s a reason they have a fund specifically to deal with issues caused by vaccinations.

      • Heraldblog

        Allegedly caused by vaccines.

        • Richard

          educate yourself.. at least give it a tiny try for a change — it is theg overnment’s  HHS’s site for vaccine compensation with a vaccine injury table… even though i believe the CDC and FDA are utterly corrupt agencies… your own tribe confirms what we are saying here http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/index.html

      • ChrisKid

        Yes, there is.  It’s so that those with actual or likely vaccine adverse reactions can be compensated without hundreds of unfounded nuisance suits driving vaccine manufacturers out of business, since vaccines are such a small portion of their profit margin.  

      • Edward

        The reason is to shield vaccine manufacturers from risk so they can make guaranteed profit.  It’s a license to maim, financed by tax payers.

    • Kathy

      They won’t be harmed by a vaccine. They’re ludicrously safe.

      • creaker

         So are guns if you score how many rounds hurt people vs. the total number of rounds fired.

        But people die from guns – and vaccines.

        • Kathy

          Can you offer proof of that from an actual source, not some anti-science nutwads?

          • http://www.facebook.com/heather.kalisiak Heather Kalisiak

            I would offer to give you the phone number of my pediatrician, who warned my mother not to allow me to not have another tetanus vaccine EVER because of the adverse reaction I had from a booster, but she is no longer practicing.  So for you to imply that vaccines are always safe is just not true.

          • ChrisKid

            You were asked for evidence, not opinion.   Especially not ancient opinion, as science goes.

          • Pplatplay

             I asked for papers supporting herd immunity, double blind studies on effectiveness of vaccines and I don’t see you posting any yet Kid

          • lynneb

            “Not ALWAYS safe” — true.  There are very rare adverse reactions, very rare allergic reactions.

            However, permanent “vaccine injury” is almost nonexistant — less than 1 in tens of millions — and deaths?  Nope.

            Diseases, on the other hand, have not nearly so rare a risk.

          • Kim

            Those are so not the facts.    Here is a place to get accurate information http://www.nvic.org/
            Just in my circle I know a man who had twin girls…got the MMR – right after – one is now autistic and one is not. AND it was a direct result of the MMR.  So the question is why did one have the propensity to get autism and the other didn’t after receiving the MMR>  There are thousands of examples like that and it is disgusting that it has not been studied…the adverse reactions.  

          • Richard

            Hi Kim… you need to realize that most of these people you are trying to debate with here are connected with orchestrated organizations and networks, which are very well funded through private sources, to discredit anything that is contrary to their dogmatic position about what they believe is valid science. They live and breath upon cherry-picked scientific evidence to sustain a very remarkably narrow-minded view of human biology. This is what they are rewarded to do. And there are many of these groups with  fancy, professional sounding names under the rubric evidence-based science or medicine.  It is more like a cult. But unfortunately it has considerable clout and influence. This has nothing to do with conspiracies. We are dealing with twisted psychopathology that is now institutionalized in medicine and these people really believe deeply, fanatically so, in the truth of their claims. This is wy they pose such a dire threat to the future of any rational discussion and debate about the conditions and causes for the horrendous state of health in this country.  It is not just vaccines these people support, but also the fossil industry, GMOs, and just about anything that is grounded in private industry funded science.  

          • lynneb

            Honestly, what?  You have a serious hate-on for formal education, and objectively verifiable information, don’t you.

          • Editorial_elixir

            child, you havent supported anything you’ve written here. You dont seem to be worthy of my attention. So have a lovely day. 

          • Kathy

            That link is a bunch of nutcases and there’s no link between vaccines and autism. That’s pure hokum. 

          • IamThinking

            just read the warning the vaccine companies put out with the vaccine, they are not 100% safe.

          • mplo

            I have to disagree with you, IamThinking.  The so-called link between vaccines and autism was disproved and tossed out by the wayside a long time ago.

          • Dr. Stone

            Have you ever seen a study done on vaccinated vs vaccinated kids on the occurrence of autism or asthma or allergies? Oh, that’s right, you haven’t-the pharma industry shuts them down and no one will fund them because they don’t want you to find out the truth. Do some research and stop trying to convince yourself that the poison you put in your children is safe. You should be ashamed.

          • Kathy

            Everyone knows those are all caused by the decrease in pirates.

          • lynneb

            First:  NVIC is run by Barbara Loe Fisher, to whom no vaccine is ever good; she has stated so herself in interviews.  It is NOT a source of accurate information, it is a source of highly distorted and misleading information.

            Second, if I’m supposed to be part of a “well-funded network”, that’s the first I’ve heard of it, and somebody somewhere is way behind in my paychecks.  Fact is, most of Richard’s characterisation is pure projection, except the bit about well funded, which is pure invention.  

          • mplo

            The so-called “link” between autism and vaccines was debunked and tossed out by the wayside a long time ago, Kim.  The guy’s twin girl who became autistic was more than likely autistic well before she even came into this world.  More and more studies have shown that people with autism, ADD, and other developmental/neurological disorders are hardwired together like that in utero, during fetal development, NOT as a result of vaccines.

          • mplo

            So you’d rather risk having your kid contract, become permanently incapacitated by and/or possibly killed by a horrible disease than to vaccinate him/her against it?  Sorry, Heather, but I refuse to buy that.  Tetanus, whooping cough, measles, diptheria and mumps, for example, are not like the common cold, which runs its course and generally goes away on its own anywhere from afew days to a week or so.   Tetanus, diptheria, and whooping cough, for example, are extremely dangerous and deadly diseases that your kids should be vaccinated against.

          • creaker
          • ToTheMoonNeil

            So 1,035 petitions for compensation were filed on the behalf of people who have died claiming the deaths were caused by vaccinations… since October 1, 1988 to May 1, 2013. 

            Of the less than 13,000 total claims since 1988, less than 3300 were compensated. 

            How do you extrapolate a number of deaths from vaccines from these statistics (from Oct 1988 until May 1, 2013)?

          • creaker

            Not sure – the information provided is not specific enough. How many would there need to be to show a possibility of death from vaccination?

          • ToTheMoonNeil

            Umm… 1? But even if the 100% of the death claims were compensated, given all of the benefits of vaccines, there is no rational argument that they are inherently dangerous and should be avoided. 

          • creaker

            I think a big part of the problem is those pushing vaccination as risk-free when it’s not, which makes it look like information is being hidden. Lay out the actual risks and I think people will choose the less risky one.

          • ToTheMoonNeil

            My doctor has certainly never presented vaccines as being risk free. Just that they are safer than the alternative, and I don’t think that that is a lie or even distorting the facts. 

          • andythebouncer

            3,254, or 216 per year actually compensated since 1988? Those numbers are dwarfed handily by the number of people killed in aviation accidents(roughly between 800 and 1500 per year, not including 2001), and we consider flying to be safe. It’s certainly safer than driving, cycling, or riding on an escalator… safe doesn’t mean without minuscule risk… there are about 300k disabling accidents and 20k deaths per year from slip and fall accidents… but we all still take baths and walk on wet floors. If you want to talk about real risk, consider how many people would die annually without a measles vaccination program… in developing countries, there are about 900,000 measles deaths per year. The CDC estimates roughly 2.7 million measles deaths per year if vaccination programs stopped. Not vaccinating your child because there were several thousand incidents of vaccine problems since 1988 is like buying a car without airbags because some children were harmed by them, ignoring the fact that they have saved many times the number of lives they have lost. Your risk analysis is way off.

          • creaker

            So is the blanket statement that vaccines are safe and present no risk.

            Actually I think, in most cases, the risk of vaccination is acceptable, for certain diseases preferred. But you don’t get people to accept that risk by lying to them and saying it’s “safe”. The justification is proving getting the vaccine is much safer than getting the disease, as you have done.

          • andythebouncer

            “Safe” and “No Risk” are two entirely different concepts. Using a butter knife to cut lettuce is safe, but it isn’t “No Risk.” Safe is a relative term, “No Risk” is an absolute term that *you* applied to the claim, retroactively. Considering how statistically unlikely any given person is to encounter a problem with a vaccine, yes, I would consider them to be safe. I don’t think that you can really consider any activity to be “No Risk.” 

          • creaker

            Me neither, which makes any blanket statement of “safe” look suspect.

          • andythebouncer

            How is it suspect? Unless those statistics are false, if a few hundred people, annually, experience issues when there are tens of millions of vaccines administered, annually, then that means vaccines are safe. It doesn’t mean that they are risk free, and I’ve never seen any piece of literature, or any official assert that vaccines are risk free. Unless those stats are faked, nobody is lying to anybody.

          • creaker

            From near the top of this thread – “They won’t be harmed by a vaccine. They’re ludicrously safe.”

          • andythebouncer

            (Looks like I can’t respond to your last statement, so here it is.)

            Oh lord, you’re right. Next thing will be the government saying that “you’re not going to die in a plane crash,” but for one in 3.4 million people, that’s going to be  PURE LIES!

          • lynneb

            3,254 compensable injuries out of over 500 million doses of vaccines given.   That’s equivalent to a 0.0006508% risk.  

            By any reasonable standard, that’s pretty bloody safe.

          • Heraldblog

            A compensable case is not the same as a verified vaccine injury. Many of those cases were for Encephalopathy and seizure disorder associated with the whole cell pertussis vaccine. But research has since shown that neither of those conditions are associated with the vaccine.

          • Lilysmamamama

            Ohhhhh so you’re of the mind that those “several thousand incidents” were ok, as long as the rest of humanity can go on and prosper? How kind of you to say thank you to those that have gambled and lost. Yeah, because it’s more important for ONE person (one human being who only gets one go around on this earth) lives in misery to safe the rest. Mighty white of you. 

          • Lilysmamamama

            save. 

            The sense of entitlement is astounding. 

          • ChrisKid

            Think you could pose your statement in a rational manner?   And without the racism?

          • andythebouncer

            So, to be clear, you are asserting: someone refusing to inoculate a child, to avoid the one in several million risk of a complication, thereby contributing to the spread of a disease which would kill several million people a year, most of whom are simply too poor to afford the vaccine, shows MY privilege?

            You want to know what privilege is? Parents in first world countries deciding that the chance of a complication, which is statistically less likely than getting struck by lightening, in their own child, is more important than the, statistically, thousands of times more likely chance of some, probably significantly poorer people contracting a disease, which will probably kill them, as a direct result of their action.

            So yes, I would take roughly 266 annual complications (most not fatal) that result from the ENTIRE US vaccine program, vs. the 2.7 MILLION FATALITIES that would occur, annually… that is over 5 deaths per minute, that would result from MEASLES ALONE, if the vaccine program was stopped.

            Do those 266 people matter? Of course they matter…we should do everything we can to force drug companies to push that number to zero. If you want to kill 5 people per minute, however, to save whatever portion of the 266 per year that stemmed from the MMR vaccine, from having mostly non-fatal complications… You know… I really don’t know what to say to that.

            Good going, though, attaching white privilege to what i was saying, in hopes that people would just dismiss what I was saying, outright, without using logic. You know, if you can’t form a reasonable argument against what someone is saying, you should probably attack their style or character and hope nobody notices the difference.

          • Sheltiemom

            Dr. Suzanne Humphries noticed that her patients were suffering kidney failure  after vaccination…she started investigating and this is what she found out about the polio vaccine (supposedly polio was eradicated in the 70s)  http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2013/02/15/dr-suzanne-humphries-discusses-vaccines-and-polio-video/
            This video is over an hour but she did her research. I think that if you take the time to watch it will change your mind about vaccines. Do some research, don’t  be a sheeple and blindly follow the flock…the vaccine industry counts on it. Follow the money, greed makes people do terrible things. Vaccines are only good for the pharmaceutical industry.

          • andythebouncer

            So you’ve got a person or small group of dedicated rebels, with credentials, scientifically exposing the truth behind a diabolical government or corporate cover-up, which is holding the “real evidence” back from the general public, who are simply dumb sheep duped into buying the cover story… but you’ve got the dedicated followers who *know* the truth, even if the conspiracy isn’t letting the real information out… people blow them off, but everywhere they look, they see more evidence! More importantly,they have *faith* in the movement leaders, whose word is truth, and motives are pure… far more pure than the pigs that control the sheeple! They know they’re close to blowing the lid off of it all, and they just need that I’ve big break to change the world forever!

            This might sound familiar to anyone who has examined the anatomy of any conspiracy theory ever. Problem is, the science is just pseudo-science designed to sound plausible to laymen, and blame the conspiracy when asking why none of it has been honestly, rigorously, scientifically tested.

            So… no, it didn’t change my mind about vaccines. She makes a bunch of unsubstantiated claims taking issue with the bizarrely oversimplified action of vaccines themselves, but doesn’t even attempt to put together a substantial double-blind study and publish the results. She uses her scientific background as cred for what she’s saying, but completely ignores scientific rigor in testing her assertions, cherry picking evidence that supports her cause, passing off everything else as part of the conspiracy. If you think the statistics that I cited, which count the number of law suits citing vaccines in their cause, including suits that were settled and didn’t go to trial, is faulty, then I’d like to see your evidence proving such a cover up took place. Or maybe you are asserting that people simply aren’t suing when they encounter damaging vaccine side effects?

            Of course, none of these questions make a difference, because it’s a religion to you– a matter of faith– rather than a rational weighing of evidence. It doesn’t make the slightest difference how much empirical evidence is put in front of you saying otherwise, because your faith is stronger than evidence, and you’ll “know” it’s just part of the cover up, being presented by part of the conspiracy, or by the duped sheeple… just like every single other conspiracy theory out there.

          • YT Wang
          • Nlwkaye

            I would love to read comments in response to YT Wang’s post from those who have dismissed its dangers as negligible. Can’t find it now, but recently watched Bill Gates stumbling to gloss over the significant numbers of vaccine injuries being reported in his third-world vaccination program. 

          • Quinnieqz

            these vaccines were manafactured in 3rd world nations and not in the US with US regualations. in addition the story states : “Despite several tests, no scientific evidence directly connecting the vaccine with the deaths or severe allergies has been provided, while health officials stressed that the vaccine batches involved were good quality and met all technical requirements”

          • Pplatplay

             You might want to check again where many of the drugs of “US” companies are actually manufactured.  You might be surprised to find that many are manufactured in China and other foreign countries

          • Heraldblog

            Vaccines are not drugs. No vaccine currently used in the US is made in China.

          • Richard

            this is a lie.  Vaccines are rated in the same categories as medications.  Flu vax is a Category C drug for example.  You can find it in the CDC’s language on this page
            http://www.cdc.gov/flu/professionals/acip/adversetiv.htm

          • Heraldblog

             Vaccines are biologics. Biologics are not the same as drugs. Ergo, vaccines are not drugs.

          • Richard

            i wouldnt expect anything less of response from you. I bet if i put out the argument that you were not a member of the  human species, you would find a reason to disagree with me. 

          • Heraldblog

             News accounts of alleged vaccine injuries aren’t really the same as peer reviewed research. Not even close.

          • Jane Doe

            From the VAERS website homepage (vaccine adverse event reporting system) you can see that some vaccines HAVE resulted in death.

            Number of Reports VAERS Receives
            VAERS receives around 30,000 reports annually, with 13% classified as serious (e.g., associated with disability, hospitalization, life-threatening illness or death) (CDC VAERS Master Search Tool, April 2, 2008). Since 1990, VAERS has received over 200,000 reports, most of which describe mild side effects such as fever. Very rarely, people experience serious adverse events following immunization. By monitoring such events, VAERS helps to identify any important new safety concerns and thereby assists in ensuring that the benefits of vaccines continue to be far greater than the risks.

            Many different types of adverse events occur after vaccination. About 85-90% of the reports describe mild adverse events such as fever, local reactions, and episodes of crying or mild irritability. The remaining reports reflect serious adverse events involving life-threatening conditions, hospitalization, permanent disability, or death, which may or may not have been caused by a vaccine.

        • mplo

          Nonsense! 

          A person has a much, much greater chance of dying or becoming permanently crippled by a gun than by a vaccine.

        • mplo

          More people die at the hands of guns than vaccines, imho.

      • Lilysmamamama
        • Actual Thinker

          I believe you were asked for scientific evidence, not a collection of internet stories.

      • Lilysmamamama

        As per the CDC…unavoidably unsafe. 

        • ChrisKid

          How about a link to the actual statement from the CDC, showing that phrasing?  Or the court ruling from which it comes?  Oh, wait, you can’t do that, can you, because it didn’t say that.

          • Heraldblog

             She is repeating something she read on an anti-vaccine website.

          • ChrisKid

            I know.  But anyone who might be reading this needs to know, also, that she’s just parroting antivaccine propaganda.

          • Skeptic

            It is not a CDC definition, it is a legal definition.
            The US legal standard applied to vaccines defines them as “unavoidably unsafe products that are quite incapable of being made safe for their intended and ordinary use”. 

            It is discussed in detail in the following Supreme Court decision:http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-152.pdf

            Every CDC information sheet should contain the quoted statement from above. 

          • ChrisKid

            Okay, you’ve provided the SCOTUS ruling.  Now can you link to the source of that quotation you’re using, please?  All I can find is one antivaccine after another, all quoting each other.  Where is the actual legal statement, as it applies to vaccines?

      • Chirhodes

        No they are not. Why is there a vaccine compensation court and fund?

        • lynneb

          Because humans are capable of having an allergic reaction to absolutely anything on earth, including sunlight and water.  However, when someone has one of the extremely rare “1 in [x]million” allergic reactions to a medical intervention given as a public health measure and to *protect* their health, it was agreed that some compassion was in order.

      • 924217624

        Are you kidding or serious? If you are actually serious, You have obviously not educated yourself on how countless numbers of people are given money for vaccine injuries and the amount of injuries that are payable for each vaccine.

      • Dee

        Vaccines are NOT safe!

    • ShowALittleRespect

      The way you are writing does a complete disservice to your  cause.  Treat people with respect please.

  • creaker

    So let’s get this straight – businesses can spew chemicals, carcinogens, kill with e coli  and salmonella, and listeria, but we’re going to go after parents who don’t vaccinate their kids.

    • Waltburk

      Bad diversionary argument. It’s not either/or. Go after both.

      • creaker

        When they go after both I’ll agree with you.

        • Heraldblog

           When you start making sense, we will take you seriously.

    • AnAppleADay

      When was the last time a company had a “listeria party” (that would be close in relation to the ever so famous “chicken pox party”.)  Your argument doesn’t make any sense.  We have laws in place to protect us and those companies are liable.  And we do go after those companies.  And even better yet, they lose business if there is an incident.

      The fact is, we live in a country where most people still do vaccinate their children.  Thank goodness.  The only reason a few very well educated parents are choosing to not vaccinate their children is because they can and it is still safe to do so.  Let’s see what they think if a majority of the herd chooses not to vaccinate.  Then we’ll see what their opinion is.

      • http://www.facebook.com/jay.kanta Jay Kanta

        Just look at Wales where previously anti-vax people are lining up for the MMR vaccination.  

        • Richard

          and where did you read this?  A reliable unbiased source please?

          • ChrisKid

            http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article3748736.ece
            You keep asking for sources.  You keep getting owned.  Why don’t you try doing something useful?

          • Richard

            did you bother reading that article.. or just cutting and pasting any headline that suits your fancy?… whew, such a peasant. 

          • ChrisKid

            You asked for a reliable source.  Now you don’t like the U.S. newspaper of record as a reliable news source. What’s the matter, didn’t it say what you wanted to hear?  How about this one instead, then?  
            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22350001

          • Richard

            well.. of course you are just giving the media interpretation.. but i thought you and your little cartel were so committed to peer-reviewed literature?.. N’est ce pas?  Am i mistaken? So here is from the British Medical Journal that there was only 1 confirmed measles case from this big bad terrible measles outbreak you are hyping about
            http://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.f2598/rr/644022

          • ChrisKid

            You objected to the ‘media interpretation’, but then referred me to a letter to the editor written by someone from Age of Autism?  So, the newspaper of record in the U.S., and the BBC aren’t good enough sources for you, but a simple comment from an antivaccine organization is somehow supposed to be valid information?  That clears up some confusion on my part, as I see that you don’t have any idea of how to recognize a valid source.  Thanks for that.

          • Richard

            more non-sequiurs? From an anti-vaccine org?.. huh?.. that’s from BMJ.. click into before spewing nonsense.

          • ChrisKid

            The author of the comment that you BMJ link leads to: John Stone, UK Editor

            AgeofAutism.com, London N22

          • ChrisKid

            You’re having a little trouble distinguishing between an actual journal article and the letters and comments in reply to it?  That explains a lot.

          • Richard

            And your point is?.. I thought in your world if something wasnt peer-reviewed it was canonized?  So why did one of your little world’s most respected peer-reviewed medical journals publish it?  John Stone?  Wow, he is  a marvelous  man. You try to meet him someday. You see Chris.. if i say you are a highly evolved human, you would conjure some dumb reason to disagree in order to prove you are some lower simian life form

          • ChrisKid

            Why did one of the world’s respected medical journals publish a letter to the editor?  Because journals do that, just as newspapers do.  Along with the actual research results, they publish comments and opinions about it.   That doesn’t make it anything more or less than the opinion of someone who reads the journal.  If you don’t understand the difference between a peer-reviewed study and an opinion, what in the world makes you think you have what it takes to grasp the complexities of scientific research?  I don’t know anything about John Stone, other than that he works for an organization that supports all sorts of pseudoscience and totally debunked ideas.  He might be a very nice guy, but he surely doesn’t know anything about medicine, immunology, or actual science.  

            If you say I’m a highly evolved human, obviously I’ll be astounded that you finally got something right.  

  • km

    Follow the money! Find out who is funding Art Caplan?

    • ThinkingMamaBear

      http://www.med.upenn.edu/bgs/camb609fall07.shtml

      Caplan teaches with Paul Offit at UPenn, Offit is the doctor who has a patent on the controversial rotavirus vaccine, some refer to him as Doctor Profit Off It (meaning vaccines) he refuses to disclose the amount of money he receives from pharmaceutical giants each year. 

      http://www.med.upenn.edu/bgs/camb609fall07.shtml

      What happens when a child is infected with a vaccine strain of an illness and becomes seriously ill? Who is responsible then? 

      http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/120/5/e1345.full.pdf

      Or what happens when a child goes into the hospital and gets infected with an antibiotic resistant superbug and dies?

      http://vaccinenewsdaily.com/news/319948-boy-dies-from-superbug-infection-at-nih-hospital/

      Can parents who don’t use antibiotics sue parents who use antibiotics if their child is infected with a superbug?

      Mothers who grew up with childhood illnesses like measles, mumps and ruebella, conferred immunity on their newborn baby. The reason babies are now susceptible to measles is because universal vaccination of children has eliminated immunity that was transferred from the mother to the baby:
      http://www.guerillahealthreport.com/post.php?id=341

      Most of all, vaccine scientists have blown the whistle on Merck and admitted that data was fudged, the very data that led to the approval of the vaccine so who is responsible for failed vaccines when the manufacturers were given immunity by the Act of Congress of 1986?
      http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/2012/06/25/scientists-sue-merck-allege-fraud-mislabeling-and-false-certificaion-of-mmr-vaccine-suzanne-humphries-md/

      • Nikki

        Thank you Thinking Mama Bear! I knew there was a money trail with this topic. 

      • Kerri

        This is the truth!  I wish people were more inclined to do the research.

      • Whitney

        Babies have always been susceptible to measles and other diseases. Vaccines have helped to dramatically cut down on the amount of disease circulating in the population, so fewer babies/children are getting sick.
        Some of the protection that you get from a vaccine can be transferred to a baby as well – this is why they are recommending that pregnant women get a pertussis booster, to provide protection for the babies when they are most at risk.

        • ThinkingMamaBear

          The reason the MMR vaccination schedule is not started until 12 – 15 months of age is because maternal antibodies interfered with the vaccine’s ability to work when given sooner. 

          This is not a controversial issue. It just is. Mothers antibodies have protected infants from measles until recently. Nowadays mothers no longer have passive immunity to confer on their babies because they did not have measles as children.Historically, school children were the most susceptible to “childhood illnesses” and kindergarten teachers joked about working in a petri dish. Today, with universal vaccination of school children, these illnesses are being driven into more vulnerable populations, occurring in infants and older folks.When school children were getting measles and mumps and chicken pox, they were “boosting” the immunity of older folks who had already had these illnesses as children. This is what herd immunity is.Now without the chicken pox booster for the general population from the school children, we have more shingles outbreaks among younger and younger people.One of the unintended consequences of universal vaccination is that these illnesses, once known as “childhood illnesses” are getting pushed into other areas of the population and babies are no longer receiving passive immunity to measles from their mothers.With pertussis, the notion of vaccinating the mother and others who will be in contact with the baby to protect the baby is caused “cocooning” the idea is that by protecting these folks from pertussis by providing immunity to the adult, the baby will be protected too. This has been abandoned in Australia as a policy that does not work.If we look at pertussis outbreaks, we see that they are occurring among highly vaccinated populations and most recently the media recirculated the news that we now have vaccine resistant pertussis.

          • Whitney

            Right, the MMR vaccine uses a live attenuated virus, and the immune system reacts differently to an attenuated virus than it does to an antigen or deactivated virus. That’s still the reason why babies are not given live vaccines (which also includes chickenpox) until at least 12 months – otherwise the response would not be as good.

            The ACIP released their recommendations concerning the pertussis booster purely because of the level of protective antibody in the mother’s bloodstream – give the booster before the mother is pregnant, and the antibody level drops too much. Give it after the mother gives birth, and it takes too long for antibodies to develop. Therefore, if given during the 3rd trimester, the mother produces antibodies which are then passed through the placenta and breastmilk, protecting the baby until they can start their own vaccine series at 2 months.

      • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

        LMFAO. You think this is proof of what? You cherry pick data in a manner that would embarrass all scientists. You insinuate one of the great minds of medical science, Paul Offit, is doing this for profit. 

        My suggest lady. Get off your lazy butt. Go get a college degree. Then an advanced degree in immunology, virology, biochemistry, something like that. Do 20 years of research in a world class laboratory. Provide evidence in the form of peer-reviewed publications in world class high impact factor journals. And then I’ll listen to you. But as long as your research is done with confirmation bias and strawman fallacies, you have nothing intelligent to say to the rest of us. You are making bogus claims that you think are supported, but are not. You are, with all due respect, a lying liar who lies.

        • Richard

          Ladies and Gentleman, i wish to submit Exhibit A for why attempting to converse with medical jihadis such as this poor soul is a futile exercise. We are trying to convince the “fooled-again” who worship at the altar of scientific dogmatism to false saints like Pope Offit, Bishop Moonkin, and the eunuch Rev. Gorski. Ever try to convert a religious fanatic?  It is no different than trying to share evidence to the pro-vaccine cretins who will deny anything that is contrary to their cozy little worlds where their hubris and disdain for themselves and others can rank supreme. We call this psychopathology and readers will certainly note the amount of hatred among those who challenge them. If you visit any of the evidence based science blogs, character assassination, hatred, an over-inflated sense of superiority overwhelms any rational scientific discussion and the ethic of inquiry that makes science move forward. Fortunately, I believe the days of the Church of Vaccination (at least with the current state of vaccine technology) will decrease during the next 2 generations as a greater understanding of epigenetics displaces the present determinist, reductionist and utterly primitive and linear view of genetics that the pro-vaccine shock troops espouse now.  I just wish that day would come sooner so we dont need to continue sparring with tiny close-minded souls. 

      • Lisaj

        Nice work, mama bear!

      • Heraldblog

        Offit does not own the patent on any vaccine. You are repeating anti-vax propaganda.

        • ThinkingMamaBear

          This is about transparency, not pro or anti vaccine. The only propaganda I see online is hate mongering being whipped up against parents who are striving to protect the right of parents and other adults to make informed choices for themselves and their children based on transparency and true informed consent.
          Look up the patents, the numbers are:5,626,851 5,750,109  6,113,910 6,270,8006,290,9686,531,156A note from the New England Journal of Medicine:”Drs. Vesikari and Marshall report having received consulting fees, lecture fees, and grant support from Merck and GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals; Drs. Matson and Santosham, consulting fees and grant support from Merck; Drs. Dennehy and Van Damme, grant support from Merck and GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals; Dr. Rodriguez, lecture fees and grant support from Merck; Drs. Black, Christie, and O’Brien, grant support from Merck; Drs. Shinefield and Campens, having received grant support from and having equity in Merck; Dr. Gothefors, having received grant support from Merck and lecture fees from GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals; and Drs. Clark and Watt, grant support from Merck. Drs. Clark and Offit report being coholders of the patent on RotaTeq. No other potential conflict of interest relevant to this article was reported.”

          • ThinkingMamaBear
          • Heraldblog

            Offit does not currently receive royalties for any vaccine. The patent for Rotateq was sold about three years ago. You are mistaken, even though you won’t admit it.

          • ThinkingMamaBear

            You are now admitting that Paul Offit has received $$$$ from vaccines and held patents on a vaccine and vaccine components in the past?

            Why didn’t you say so in the first place?

          • Heraldblog

             I know, that’s shocking isn’t it. People are paid for their work.

            Are you now admitting that you were wrong when you wrote that Offit is (present tense) a vaccine patent holder? Or would that be too much to ask.

            If you were as savvy about vaccine safety as you pretend to be, you would have known that patent was sold years ago. I suppose you also think he “voted himself rich” and was “censored by the US Congress” – two more anti-vaccine talking points that are repeated over and over on disreputable websites.

            Think for yourself, mom.

          • ThinkingMamaBear

            You know what… it doesn’t matter if Paul Offit was paid royalties yesterday, the day before, or today, the point is that Paul Offit invented a vaccine, held a patent on that vaccine (and more) and is on the Pharma payroll; he has been there all along, and has now and had then a clear conflict of interest. 

          • mplo

            What I see in your thinking, ThinkingMamaBear, is the kind of attitude(s) of somebody who’d just as soon see the United States really go into third-world status, back to the days when people either died from, or were permanently incapacitated from such diseases as polio, whooping cough, tetanus, and many other such horrible diseases.  I don’t buy into your thinking.

          • ThinkingMamaBear

             Well in some third world countries (whatever that means in 2013) you’ll find healthier people. Have you looked at infant mortality rates lately and compared those of the US to third world nations? Sure we can do high tech costly interventions but what can we do about the basics to support health and healing and longevity free of asthma, arthritis, eczema, Gb, bowel irritability and other auto immune illnesses? Stop fear mongering and start looking at the children. This ever growing and expanding vaccination schedule is not making for healthier people.

          • mplo

            That’s not true at all, ThinkingMamaBear.  There’s a much higher incidence of disease, hunger/starvation and polio and asthma, not to mention a whole host of other ailments in third-world countries due to their not having access to vaccines.  

            Say what you will against vaccinating kids, ThinkingMamaBear, but if I’d been a parent with children, I’d get them vaccinated against pertussis, measles and other serious communicable childhood diseases rather than take chances with them coming down with serious diseases that would leave them totally and permanently incapacitated, if they didn’t kill them outright.

            As I pointed out before, Dr. Andrew Wakefield’s and jenny McCarthy’s dangerous propaganda, which was nothing but fear-mongering, was debunked and tossed out by the wayside for what it is:  a bunch of dangerous hocus-pocus.

    • DianeAPRN

      Wow. Now working at the same university with someone who has developed a vaccine is somehow getting him money??? Paranoia extreme.

      Did you read these before posting Thinking Mama Bear. In 4 months the antibodies were gone. So there could get measles. My aunt died of measles and my mother’s best friend was disabled. Measles is not a plot cooked up to scare people into getting vaccines to put money in greedy pediatricians pockets- its a serious disease and we should thank our lucky stars that smart talented researchers and physicians developed an immunization that saved MILLIONS of lives. And guess what- I have not gotten a dime from any vaccine company.

      • YankeeTexan

        But “Gee Diane, what if it was YOUR child that died from a vaccine?” Would you be so willing to dismiss it so cavalierly for the sake the other MILLIONS of children saved and NOT be remorseful? Next you’ll be comparing yourself to Abraham patting yourself on the back all the while…

        Also, I’d like to add that “All lies by Texans are false.”

        • mplo

          Chances are that your child died of something else, and not the vaccine.  It’s dangerous to constantly and instinctly blame a child’s death or permanent incapacitation on a vaccine.  Something else was probably at play there.

  • dontwalkdontrun

    I agree parents who abuse their children by not vaccinating them should be held civilly liable if their infected child harms someone else, but they should also be held criminally liable. Many states have laws designed to criminalize knowingly infecting someone with HIV, and those laws should be enforced for parents who don’t vaccinate their children and put everyone else’s children in danger. There is no other circumstance where you can put other people’s children in danger and not face the consequences.

    • Vaccine Skeptic Society

      So when people are harmed by vaccines which has been documented to occur, who is responsible and liable then?  The pharmaceutical industry isn’t, the doctor’s aren’t, so who is?

      • ChrisKid

        There is already a compensation program in place for that, as you well know.

      • dontwalkdontrun

        When people are actually harmed by vaccines, which is incredibly rare, the pharmaceutical company is liable. You just have to prove your case in the Office of Special Masters of the U.S. Court of Federal Claims or Vaccine Court. Proving to a judge that the “toxins” or whatever crackpot conspiracy theory Jenny McCarthy comes up with this week is what made your child sick is difficult because judges use that “evidence” stuff. You know, where you have to prove what you say with facts that didn’t come from tinfoilhat.com. Vaccines have saved hundreds of millions of lives. You would have an easier time arguing against the existence of gravity.

        • Richard Gale

          This is a lie… for the past 30 years the federal compensation program has been funded by a small excise tax on every vaccine sold. 

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Victoria-J-West/1306135315 Victoria J West

      So when a manufacturer’s package insert specifies who should NOT get their product, you advocate they should get it anyway because following the manufacturer’s directions instead of the marketer’s irrational push for sales and profit is something that should result in criminal charges??????

  • Carlie

    How about liability to our children when harmful vaccinations hurt our children, causing life-threatening and sometimes life-long illnesses? Art Caplan has it all wrong. If you want the population to comply, adjust the vaccination schedule, remove harmful toxins from the vaccines, break the vaccines up and delay the schedule! Infants should not be subjected to immune-altering antibodies on their day of birth. Their bodies simply aren’t ready to handle… Fear of vaccinations will be reduced once our policyholders and medical health professionals realize that parents want SAFE, effective protection from diseases. It’s simple really, reduce the fear by decreasing the number of harmful side effects and gain compliance.

    • Nikki

      Exactly! Remove the harmful toxins from the vaccine! This is what parents who don’t vaccinate are afraid of.  It’s just like foods you may eat. If there are ingredients you can’t pronounce or ever heard of, you shouldn’t consume it. 

      • FluffyPuppy

        Okay, but can you guys answer DianeARPN’s question?  What harmful toxins?

      • ChrisKid

        There are ingredients you can’t pronounce or never heard of in everything you eat.  It’s just that the chemical composition of carrots isn’t printed on each one.  You’re foolishly allowing yourself to be frightened by the bogeyman of ‘chemicals’ without realizing that everything you eat, drink, breathe, or wear is made of chemicals.

        There are no toxins in vaccines.  Parents who don’t vaccinate are afraid of things they don’t understand.

        • Chirhodes

          Mercury, formaldehyde, aluminum, ethelyne glycol, polysorbate 40 and 80 …etc…

          • ChrisKid

            Are you trying to prove my point, or what?  There is no mercury in childhood vaccines.  Actually, there never was, but let’s just stick with the present.  Why are you concerned about substances that your body naturally produces, like formaldehyde?  If it were the toxin you claim it is, we’d all be dead before we were ever born.  

            Ethylene glycol – also not in vaccines.  Please get your facts straight and stop making yourself look foolish.  
            Polysorbate 80 is commonly used in many foods.  You get more in your normal diet than is in any vaccine, which is also the case with aluminum (which is also not in vaccines in its elemental state).  

            I know this is hard for you to grasp, but the whole actual point is, none of the ingredients in vaccines are amounts that could possibly be toxic.  All of them are substances that you ingest in other ways and you don’t even think about.  
            Basic scientific tenet – the dose makes the poison.

          • Firelily777

            How much bee venom does it take to cause anaphylaxis?  You cannot compare injections to ingestion. When you inject something it’s picked up by blood vessels and the lymph system. It does not get filtered through the liver. Aluminum is cumulative so multiple shots and shots every year well that helps explain the rise in alzheimers  disease.  http://www.russellblaylockmd.com/

          • ChrisKid

            You’re not talking about anaphylaxis. 

            Boy, oh, boy, do you need a refresher course in biology.  Everything that enters your system or your blood gets filtered through the liver.  

          • Firelily777

            Eventually and not everything but most everything. Depends on what it binds to before it goes to the second pass of the liver.  It also bypasses first-pass metabolism in the liver, resulting in a higher bioavailability for many drugs than oral ingestion would (so users get a stronger effect from the same amount of the drug).  Most vaccination serums are proteins, and are not censored by the liver. It has to make it to the intestines before the liver even comes into play. Lots of damage can be done while its going through the body and binding to other things. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/jay.kanta Jay Kanta

            Blaylock?  Really?  The guy is widely recognized as nothing more than a cranky quack.  And you’re just using an argument from authority.  Worthless.

          • Richard

            we feel the same way about your priesthood of offit, geberding, nouvella, gorski, and other scientific minded minimalists. 

          • elnura

             What are your credentials?  Every Dr. that is against vaccines and poisoning people for the sake of profit is considered a quack.   He is actually a well published neurosurgeon whose focus is on nutrition.  He has brought focus to the problems in the food chain with HFC & MSG, their affects on the body.  I guess you’re a believer in these toxins as well.  Than you should love some of the vaccines because several hae MSG in them.

          • Richard

            stop lying!!!.. there never was mercury in childhood vaccines?  You are lower than a peasant if you believe that. And you feel that makes our food safer?  Gee, look at all the food additives and environmental toxins in household products banned by the EU but still dumped on Americans. So what is your point?

          • Heraldblog

            You forgot di-hydrogen monoxide.

    • DianeAPRN

      What “harmful toxins”? Thiomersol? Despite huge research studies showing it is very safe  it has been taken out of vaccines due to the paranoia. The figures are overwhelming. If we stop vaccinating for measles for example MILLIONs of children will die whereas the number of vaccine associated deaths per year is miniscule in comparison- in the 100s. I think there is a good point to be had here- folks that don’t vaccinate do not want their kids to die of measles – they just count on the rest of us to vaccinate their kids so that there is not much measles around and the risk of refusing the vaccine is low.

      • Laura_connors@hotmail.com

        Harmful toxins…..let’s see, where to begin? Thimerosol ( still in many multiple dose vials of the flu shot – open the insert and see for yourself), aluminum, formaldehyde, aborted human fetal cells. I can probably stop there for now. Those toxins.

        Huge research studies showing it is very safe. This is laughable. Thimerosol is a neurotoxin. Neurotoxins injected into the bloodstream cause neurotoxicity. Plain and simple. Not one study has shown thimerosol is safe. There are over 40 studies showing thimerosol is unsafe and the pharmaceutical industry knows this as does the government which is why the pharm companies were given multi million dollar grants to remove it. The studies you refer to are probably one of the five studies done in which the government manipulation of those numbers to “prove” thimerosol didn’t effect autism rates was so grossly manufactured you wouldn’t believe the details if I had the time to share them. Start with Verstraeten 2003 and do your own research.

        Measles deaths…where DO you get your information? Millions of children will die??? People have had measles for generations. There is scientifically no such thing as a death from measles. It is absolute propaganda. In 1961, it was reported that 1 in 100,000 children died from measles but it is questionable if it was measles, or some underlying health condition whereby their low immunity made them susceptible to measles and it was something else that caused their death. In any case, 50,000 Americans die every year reportedly from pharmaceutical drugs. Where is the outcry there?

        Trust me, the people who don’t vaccinate their kids aren’t counting on you for anything. We are reading the science (that mainstream media and many medical journals wont touch because they are largely owned by Big Pharma), educating ourselves on the dangers and effectiveness, or lack thereof, of vaccines and making informed choices that are best for our family.

        • mplo

          It’s the people who refuse to vaccinate their kids against measles, diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus and polio, for example, that’re totally ignorant of science and biology, as well as the affects of the refusal to do so on the rest of the community.

      • mplo

        Counting on most of the rest of the parents who DO have the good sense to vaccinate their kids and not bothering to get YOUR kids vaccinated is disgracefully irresponsible, as you’re putting your own kids at risk.  

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      What harmful toxins? And I’ll wait for the cut and paste from some lame vaccine denier.

      • Richard

        here… keep yourself busy for a week so we dont need to continue reading your unsubstantiated jargon   http://www.vaccinesafety.edu/package_inserts.htm  be certain to read the adverse effects listed and the categories and conditions the vaccines have been and have not been tested for to determine efficacy and safety. 

    • ChrisKid

      We have safe, effective protection from diseases.  You simply refuse to accept something that you don’t understand.

      • Pplatplay

        I suggest you read JAMA January 6, 1999 – Vol 281 No 1
        “Trends in Infectious Disease Mortality”  Your precious vaccines, while having  impact in  3rd world countries, had little to do with the lowered mortality rate in the US.  Sanitation and antibiotics were the primary cause in improved mortality, not vaccines.  Well intentioned people work on creating a vaccine, but well intentioned people also worked on proving the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

        • ChrisKid

          Yeah, you posted that upthread somewhere.   Do you cut and paste all your responses, or just the ones with links that show you to be wrong?

  • Drjcrodriguez

    lets see if my kid isn’t vaccinated …….but yours is …..and you still get the virus that i may or may not have caused who should really get sued? … i opt for the vaccine company that said i wouldn’t catch it

    • Mimi

      Vaccine companies don’t advertise a 100% guarantee (ever listen to the possible side effects on TV ads?)  This article states, ‘ …can happen since vaccine is not 100% effective.’ Vaccine company won’t be liable

      • Lilysmamamama

        So, if the vaccine makers don’t guarantee their vaccines are going to work then potentially EVERY parent could be sued for “spreading disease”. 

        • ChrisKid

          If you take appropriate steps to prevent the spread of the disease, such as vaccination, you haven’t been negligent, have you?  If you don’t want to bother to take the appropriate steps for prevention because nearly everyone else does and you can hide behind them, then you have been negligent, haven’t you?  

          I see you don’t understand liability any better than you do vaccines.

      • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

        Pharmaceutical companies dug their own graves with, “ask your doctor” marketing campaigns. Fine for a depressed or sneezing single-something; they did not anticipate that parents truly do read, ask questions, do the research and take care with their babes. Thus, the rise in vaccine “exemptions.”

        • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

          I’m pretty certain that your couple of hours of research is equivalent to someone with a bachelor’s degree in biology. Then a Ph.D. in a biomedical science. Then 10-20 years of research in a world class laboratory. Then managing a clinical trial. In fact that researcher has actually saved lives through their hard work.

          What have you done? Are you too lazy to invest the 8 years of education and decades of hard work? Are you too arrogant and ignorant to spend 48 hours straight in a lab trying to figure out what you did wrong in an experiment? Or what you did right to get some intriguing results?

          You chose the easy way, where you use confirmation bias, that is find only the data that support your belief (and it is a belief, it is not a true hypothesis)? And you do that by searching Google for websites that support your belief, but refuse to even understand the real science.

          I have no respect for you, because you don’t deserve respect.

          • ombudsmann

            Michael, besides exemplifying the pitfalls of ‘expert worship’, your pitch sidesteps the context of pharmaceutical industry corruption, largely stemming from conflicts of interest in the regulatory sphere. Denigrating remarks about ignorance and arrogance magnify the callous disregard for inevitable and horrendous injuries inflicted by ‘unavoidably unsafe’ vaccines.  The problem with ‘expert worship’ in this case boils down to the fact that these very scientists have been bought off, and given revolving door privileges, with the obscene profits enabled by the 1986 legislation granting absolute immunity from liability.

          • lilady

             You, of course, have statistics that compare the exceedingly rare serious adverse event following a vaccination, that exceeds the serious, sometimes deadly, consequences of not vaccinating your child, don’t you?

            “Callous Disregard”?  What a clever phrase…used by the disgraced and discredited former medical doctor Andrew Wakefield as the title of his book. You wouldn’t happen to be a fan of his, would you?

          • Skeptic

            Of course, Lilady is an independent voice in this. Or maybe not. She spent decades blindly vaccinating kids. She of course knows that vaccines have never been properly safety tested, as they usually use another vaccine or vaccine excipients as the placebo. Vaccines are tested for a few days, maybe few weeks for adverse reactions, which is not enough for most autoimmune conditions to develop. When you pharma trolls subject yourselves to today’s vaccine schedule, you can start to pontificate about the responsibility of others. In my experience, CDC and public health officials all use an alternative schedule on their own kids. 

          • vucja

            Yes, there are conflicts of interest regarding vaccines and preventive medical/pharmaceutical recommendations. Think of all the people now labeled DM or needing statins, think of all the money to Big Pharma . This does nothing to change the fact that infants at least in Western democracies don’t often die now before their first year due to vaccines – but it is contributing to overpopulation.

          • Ralph Parsons MD

            im a doctor of 50 years i have seen too many babies go home and die or suffer neurological damage .. i have since gone holistic ..and the childhood diseases just dont show up . and the children have higher IQ”S..the brain just doesnt want that poison in it 

          • ChrisKid

            Please provide sources and evidence for any of those quite extraordinary claims that you made.  

            Childhood diseases ‘just don’t show up’?  That would be because most children are vaccinated and protecting the ones you refuse to protect.  

          • Stephanie Smith

            Source- go straight to the CDC website and look at their numbers.. in fact a child is more likely to develop a seizure from the MMR vaccine than to ever contract measles.. a child is more likely to suffer brain damage from the vaccine than to every die from the disease,.. CDC.com, look at the numbers, do the math,, their recommendations do not support their claims…

          • Living healthy & un-medicated

            I just read a book called The Pharmaceutical Myth… Dr. Parson’s is so right, even though people don’t want to accept an inconvenient truth when they hear one.

          • vucja

            Please share your data with the rest of us. What are the numbers behind the statement, “too many babies go home and die.”

          • Dr. Stone

            As a pediatrician, I’d like to inform you that my hospital makes millions of dollars to push vaccines, even though the efficacy rates aren’t anywhere near where they should be. Also, the so-called “science” behind vaccines is finally getting questioned for real, viable reasons, but of course mainstream media shuts that down in a second because diseases like cancer, autism, asthma, etc are billion dollar industries in th U.S. It’s sad when sheep followers like yourself don’t do MORE digging and instead choose to poison your children with vaccines. Maybe your children will have terrible effects, maybe they won’t-but you can rest assured the government and medical industry would be thrilled if your children had issues so they can make a pretty penny. Go educate yourself.

          • Stephanie Smith

            Actually you can go straight to the CDC website and look at their numbers.. in fact a child is more likely to develop a seizure from the MMR vaccine than to ever contract measles.. a child is more likely to suffer brain damage from the vaccine than to every die from the disease,.. CDC.com, look at the numbers, do the math,, their recommendations (per the people who went to school and did the lab work) do not support their claims…

      • Yah_is_the_mighty_1

        uhm, exactly, therefore you couldnt sue because regardless o who/how the virus spread, the fact remains that you cant be 100% sure it was due to someone’s not being vaccinated that cause THEM to get sick to get YOU sick. In other words, even had said person BEEN vaccinated (why you’re sueing) it’s not 100% that said person would not have gotten sick regardless

        • lynneb

          Nope.  Epidemiology is very good at tracing the “patient zero”, and so far, in disease outbreaks, the “patient zero” has always been an unvaccinated person.  

          Since it is very well known, and disseminated, that vaccines leave a certain number of people at risk and dependent on a high rate of those around them being vaccinated (“herd immunity” is NOT just a theoretical concept, no matter what anti-vaccinationists tell you), then an unvaccinated person acting as a disease vector is definitely (a) traceable, and (b) responsible.

          • Richard Gale

            HAS ALWAYS BEEN?.. where is your source for that.. i am tired of you shills just spouting rhetoric and propaganda without walking your talk withe some actual studies that can be looked at scrutinized as valid or flawed. 

          • Heraldblog

            It’s hidden in books, Richard.

          • lilady

             It’s also available in the CDC Case Surveillance Manual:

            http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/surv-manual/chpt07-measles.html

            Epidemiologists are superb when they do trace back investigations to determine the index case.

            (Epidemiology 101)

          • Richard

            I do not consider epidemiological, cohort and ecological studies as gold standard science capable of drawing any final conclusions for the simple reason they are notoriously susceptible to manipulation with confounders to achieve a desired result. Unfortunately, to conduct the type of double blind placebo biomolecular studies necessary for ending the debate of vaccine efficacy and safety would be unethical in humans. Therefore we have had to rely on animal  studies. There is a huge body of such studies showing vaccinations’ short and long term adverse effects, including permanent neurological disability, autoimmune dysfunction and the list goes on and on.  For thimerosal alone, here is a long list of peer reviewed studies that should raise the alarm of any human with sufficient between their ears to question vaccine safety. And this for only thimerosal. The peer review literature for alum as vaccine adjuvants are equally alarming… http://www.safeminds.org/research/docs/Thimerosal%20Science%20Summary%20Dec%202012.pdf    And i know you dogmatists and medical jihadis in the pro-vaccine camp will find some reason to discredit it because you have “fooled-again” repeatedly like any religious nutcase. Clinical trials for vaccine safety do not last for long periods of time to determine long term adverse effects. It is not like the French study by Seralini who observed the rapid appearance and growth of tumors in mice fed GMO corn after 4 months, when the Monsanto trial to prove the GM corn safety and using the same mouse strain lasted only 3 months and noted no tumors.  Long term follow up studies on vaccinated kids are simply not performed, and there is no interest by Big Pharma to conduct such trials if it is not required of them by federal health agencies. Having worked in biotech and preparing licensure filings for products to the FDA, I can assure you that we provided only what is necessary to get rapid approval and avoided whatever we could within legal bounds that would raise caution. It was always a race to  beat out the competition and to generate press releases sooner rather than later on product pipeline achievements to keep shareholders happy and increase the stock price. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/jay.kanta Jay Kanta

            Conspiracy theories are not evidence, they are just opinions.  Please try to stick to the evidence, Richard.

          • Richard

            Huh?.. So guys, without anything else to say you have resorted to non sequiturs to continue your charade?  Jay, you haven’t sourced one piece evidence i have seen here yet. But i would humbly request a favor from you, share with us a little about the kind of training you receive. I would like to be educated about how you guys manage to parrot each other so beautifully.   And then so many others like you on other sites that all show master workmanship from coming out of the same cookie cutter.

          • Skeptic

            Don’t bother with them Richard, they are all pharma trolls. 

          • Richard

            thanks, i know who they are.. this is just temporary entertainment. I know it is a futile exercise. 

          • Heraldblog

             How do you feel about math, Richard?

          • vucja

            Far fewer infants in Western democracies are now dying of diphtheria, persussis, para-pertussis, meningitis and tetanus than in the past.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

            Should Parents Be Liable If Unvaccinated Children Sicken Others?
            Why? your Toxic crap sickened our children.  And, we can’t seem to hold you liable.
            Besides, it appears by the California data.  And the recent news reports from all over the world that points to.       Hello! the vaccines are not working! Especially when the Vaccinated are contracting the disease at rates of 87 % fully vaccinated 11 % partially and only 8 % of non vaccinated in California was getting Whooping cough.       

            So the more vaccinated the children were, the more likely they were to get the very disease they were vaccinated against.   
            This could be a SNL comedy skit, really you cannot makeup comedy material this good.  Think about it, they are causing the very diseases they are supposed to be preventing.   
            Sat, May 25th, 2013By Christof Lehmann (nsnbc) Sat, May 25th, 2013 Islamabad city hospital continues receiving children suffering from measles. Authorities inform that all necessary precautions have been taken. More than 50 % of the children brought to the hospital are children who previously have been vaccinated. The Pakistani figures corroborate recently released British documentation.
            It appears, your crap you call vaccines.  Are worse than useless.  And by your articles caption,the vaccinated could be held liable for the evidence is overwhelming they are causing their own epidemics.  

          • http://www.facebook.com/jay.kanta Jay Kanta

            That was an incredible poor piece of analysis, Mr. Harris.  

            First, one should be aware that the percentages are indicative that the unvaccinated are nearly 40% more likely to catch pertussis (which is the disease you are using the numbers for).  

            You should also learn how to use proper punctuation.  Figuring out your diatribe was a chore.

          • Heraldblog

             Big Grammar shill!

            ;-)

          • mplo

            What a bunch of tripe!  Not getting kids vaccinated against communicable childhood illnesses is irresponsible…and unconscionable.  Why should others have to risk being sickened because some kid’s parents were paranoid and irresponsible enough not to get their kid vaccinated?

          • mplo

            I disagree with you, ccdaddy.  It’s totally irresponsible not to get your kids vaccinated against measles, etc., or any of these other communicable diseases.  They’re not like the common cold that can easily be prevented with the proper nutrition, and that goes away within a week or so.

          • Dr.Stone

            Actually, they are. Did you know that the proper treatment for measles is hydration and rest? Just like the common cold, in fact. And pertussis makes its rounds every 3-4 years and you’ll get a bad bout. Children who have the vaccine are just as likely to get it as kids that don’t. And as for the flu vaccine which is given live in the nasal spray-THAT is what’s spreading the disease, NOT the unvaccinated.

          • vucja

            Immunity to pertussis wanes as children approach their teens; re-vaccination is now recommended. Most adults have no immunity to pertussis even if they had been vaccinated as children. Does a “bad bout” mean great sickness and death?

          • J.M. Becker

            First off, when you do studies on this type of variable you need to use subjects from a similar area. Using a complete state will result in incorrect data, as it doesn’t account for socio-economic, population, and virus morphology differences. Why you may ask? If more unvaccinated are home school farm children, and more vaccinated are public school city children, their level of exposure is magnitudes apart. This all assumes of course your statistics actually exist, and any sort of study really took place.

          • guest

            So where did patient ZERO get it from?  The moon? 

            What say “patient ZERO” had laboratory proof  on the medical files, within the previous 12 months, of existence of good levels of IgG antibodies to said disease? 

            What say (as in the current Wales measles NON-epidemic), reliable testing reduces “hundreds” of measles cases alleged by health authorities…down to only ONE provable case?” 

            What say all the media hype and the medical system press releases later turn out to be a load of fictitious propaganda, as has just happened in the UK?

            Actually epidemiology is not very good at tracing the patient zero in many diseases.  That is almost impossible in the case of pertussis, because by the time the cough is confirmed, that is often more than 28 days after “zero” day, and on the average day, the infected person could have had anonymous contact with so many people without realising they were infectious… bank teller, shop customers, people in museum, parents work mates casually passing something to parent – the possibilities are limitless and cannot be accounted for with epidemiology…

          • vucja

            And most adults have lost their immunity. Very good – IgG vs. IgM.

          • Cinnamon Chestnut

            most of these characters are not interested in science and facts. they want to rely on their “feelings” (as if a bowel movement is scientific).

          • NikkiHillHernandez
          • lynneb

            Yes; did you note that this outbreak was the first one EVER to be traced to a patient in whom vaccination had failed?

            Out of the dozens of outbreaks across American and the hundreds around the world — the first one EVER?

            And that all the rest have been unvaccinated.

            Considering how many more vaccinated people there are than unvaccinated, it is a good demonstration that while vaccination failure is possible we can see where the balance of risk is.

    • YankeeTexan

      Hmmm…reminds me of that old saying, “if a child is not vaccinated and nobody sees it, will they still get sick?”

      Or did that have something to do with trees…? I always get them confused.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004319923237 Addryanne Adamsyn

      Way to show you don’t understand how vaccination works.    If 2 people are driving drunk and one hits another, who is liable?

      • mplo

        Why, that’s obvious;  The drunk driver who hits the other driver.  Therefore, the parents who don’t get their kids vaccinated are liable.

    • Robert12Disqus

      you’ll get more money too, but unfortunately they’ll use public money to pay instead of their profits…

  • Hliddle

    The ability to vaccinate our children is a gift. A BBC news brodcast just before this episode of Here and Now reported that health care workers, parents, and children in Pakistan have LITREALLY been under fire for taking part in a polio vaccination clinic. Therefore, Pakistani parents who have seen the effects of these diseases are willing to put themselves and their families at risk in order to give their children the gift of vaccination. Americans seem to have no concept of what it is that they are “choosing” to withold from their children. And those parents who make a foolish choice should be held accountable if that choice endangers the lives of others.

    • Chirhodes

      I have read over 25 vaccine related books and numerous articles over the past 28 years and I have seen no scientific proof the vaccines are safe of really effective. much more to the story than can be conveyed in a short burst. but the real science is clear. vaccination is a gigantic hoax, like the flat earth that the sun revolves around the earth. Many uneducated laypeople as well as doctors may disagree but the facts speak for themselves. Sanitation and refrigeration stopped germs from overpowering weakened immune systems. IF someone tries to sue an unvaccinating parent, the truth may be brought to light instead of the superstition that germs cause well people to become sick. it’s time to wise up and stop the insanity of mandating an unscientific medical experiment on American children. It’s against the Neurenburg code to sacrifice a few for the good of the many. Stop the nonsense!

      • ChrisKid

        Why am I so sure that all or nearly all of those 25 books were written by antivaccine quacks and a good percentage of them were self-published.  It’s not the amount of information you’ve sucked up; it’s the amount of good information, and yours seems to be seriously lacking in ‘good’.

      • ChrisKid

        So tell us how much sanitation and refrigeration changed in India in the past five years, that polio is no longer endemic.  Tell us how much the hygiene and refrigeration practices in the U.S. changed in the past decade, so that Hib was virtually wiped out.  Tell us how much any of that changed in the U.S. from 1950 to 1960, when polio rates dropped to nearly zero.   Please explain how that works, that the sanitary infrastructure of countries all over the world happens to drastically improve just after any particular vaccine is put into use there.  And while you’re at it, perhaps you can explain how it is that sanitation and refrigeration affected different diseases at different times in the same country.  

        • Pplatplay

          I suggest you read JAMA January 6, 1999 – Vol 281 No 1
          “Trends in
          Infectious Disease Mortality”  Your precious vaccines, while having 
          impact in  3rd world countries, had little to do with the lowered
          mortality rate in the US.  Sanitation and antibiotics were the primary
          cause in improved mortality, not vaccines.  Well intentioned people work
          on creating a vaccine, but well intentioned people also worked on
          proving the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

          • Thai

            I’m pretty sure seat belts are the primary cause for improved mortality in vehicular accidents. Air bags are quite expensive and don’t do that much.

            The primary cause of improved mortality is a result of improved sanitation and antibiotics but it is not the sole reason. Sanitation will not prevent an infection from an airborne vector. Smallpox is commonly spread during face to face contact with someone within 6 feet. Antibiotics cannot be used to treat viral infections such as smallpox, polio, measles, hepatitis a+b, hpv, chicken pox, the flu, colds, and ect.

          • Pplatplay

             Thai -  Look at the statistics and the study I posted.  It is not the vaccines that are lowering the mortality rate in this country.  In fact they may be increasing it over time.  Sanitation and antibiotics, antivirals (okay now?) are the “major” factors in mortality improvement. 

          • http://www.facebook.com/jay.kanta Jay Kanta

            You’re attempting to conflate morbidity and mortality, Pplatplay.  That indicates that you don’t understand the difference, or how statistics work.  It also indicates you didn’t understand the article you cited.

          • mplo

            Those particular diseases are NOT like the common cold, which can be mitigated by improved sanitation.  Smallpox, polio, measles and other severe communicable diseases are illnesses that people all too often became permanently crippled by or died from.  Nobody has ever become permanently incapacitated or died from the common cold, which is also caused by a virus.

          • vucja

            Also, anyone want to take their chances with contracting MDR Tuberculosis, anyone want to rely just on their immune system fighting it off? Do you mean “decreased” ,mortalityrates in vehicle accidents?

          • ChrisKid

            I see nothing in that reference to support the conclusions you’ve jumped to.  Yes, mortality rates declined over the course of the century, but that has nothing to do with incidence or serious adverse effects short of death.  You’ve read a lot into that.

          • Heraldblog

            Pp, you conflating “mortality” with “morbidity.” That is a common ploy among anti-vaxers.

          • vucja

            Agreed.

        • Skeptic

          Sure, India has documented 45,000 cases of paralysis (AFP) last year, a direct result of the oral polio vaccine. Public health officials use two tools to exaggerate vaccine effectiveness. They over-estimate disease rates prior to the introduction of a vaccine then underestimate or rename the disease after the vaccine is introduced. 

          • ChrisKid

            It is dishonest in the extreme to mention AFP and intentionally leave off the first two initials in that abbreviation.  It’s NPAFP, and you know it.  The NP stands for Non Polio.  A vaccination campaign to eradicate polio requires increased surveillance in order to track the progress of the campaign.  As part of that, cases of Acute Flaccid Paralysis are reported, diagnosed, and recorded.  Acute Flaccid Paralysis can have several different causes, not just polio, so it’s important to know if the cases reported are polio or not.  The ones you’re talking about are not polio and are not related to the vaccine.  Please stop trying to mislead people.  It sidetracks the discussion.  

            Also, would you post your figures, please, for the over and under-estimations you claim were done, and your sources for the correct figures you must have in order to know that?  

      • AnAppleADay

        Are you sure your name isn’t “Typhoid Mary”?

      • Kathy

        Really? There’s no evidence they’re successful? 

        Look back at how many people ended up dead from these diseases in the past. How many were in iron lungs for their entire life. That doesn’t happen anymore. There’s the proof. If you’re not finding up to date research, it’s probably for the same reason nobody’s getting a paper published that establishes gravity exists.

      • vucja

        “stopped germs from overpowering weakened immune systems”- that’s not what’s coming out in the news these days. Which Nuremberg code are you referring to? That which Hitler wanted to remove, after WWI?

    • vucja

      A scenario: parent with religious reasons concerned with potential sexual activities of children refuses the HPV vaccine. Child not only gets HPV down the road, but also develops cervical, or penile, or adenoidal/tonsilar cancer. Who could be liable?

  • drnancy

    Then the vaccine manufacturer’s and doctors administering vaccines should be held liable if their patients get injured as a result of the vaccine. Hmmm. I don’t think they will go for that!

    • creaker

      They’ve also come across situations where batches of vaccines distributed weren’t effective. They should be liable in this case as well.

  • YankeeTexan

    No, the unimmunized shouldn’t be held accountable. This arguement is really an Idiot’s Folly. #1 I believe the Burden of Proof would be sketchy at best; to be able to conclusively point the finger at “Patient Zero”. Ok, so what if that person had been vaccinated, could it not have been just as easily been another person. #2) Caplan’s over-educated opinion simply empowers over-educated amubance chasing lawyers. #3) Are we going to enforce culpability for all the undocumented immigrants now in the nation? Are you seriously going to tell me that all of their shots are up-to-date, and yet we have no way of tracking them down and enforcing legal immigration? #4) Last time I checked, this was supposedly a free country. Are we now going to use the truncheon and baton to force people to vaccinate?

    If you are so d*mn concerned about me getting my vaccinations, then maybe you had better come over and tutor me on the fine art of earth-friendly @$$wiping. No, better yet, since you are clearly a superior thinker and moral protector of your community, why don’t you just live my Life for me, and I’ll just collect the checks.

    How’s that sound?

    • Jesse

      Can you definite “over-educated” for me? At what point does someone become too educated? Is it a page count? When should I stop trying to learn to avoid the dangerous pitfalls of over-education? 

      • YankeeTexan

        O-v-e-r-e-d-u-c-a-t-e-d: One who is educated to such a degree that they believe their own press, are convinced of their own moral or ethical superiority, and insist on convincing everyone they encounter that their perspective is Truth despite the alternative possibilities presented by facts, experience or Common Sense.

        Now go put your water-wings on, play in your sandbox and stop trying to convince yourself that your clever.

        • Heraldblog

          Now define under educated,

      • ChrisKid

        Just take a look at his reply to you.  I think you’ll see a good example.

        • YankeeTexan

          Hey, don’t blame me, kid. Ignorance doesn’t have to prove itself.

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    Vaccines are not seat belts or traffic lights; they are pharmaceutical products (currently) delivered by syringe that have a wide range of potentially debilitating side effects. This discussion isn’t “ethics”~ it’s utter madness.

    • Chris

       Absolutely correct.

    • mplo

      That’s a total non-sequitor, Vax_Choice_Human_Right.  Seat belts and traffic lights weren’t even being discussed here, nor did they appear in the above-posted article.  Not to vaccinate one’s kids against diseases such as polio, mumps, measles, whooping cough and diphtheria is utter madness.

  • Drew

    It’s like saying I will sue you because you gave me the flu, or the common cold.

    • creaker

      They have shots for the flu, so I would think the same standard could be applied if you didn’t get the shot. There is no vaccination for colds, but I expect one could make a case that sending a child out with a cold is intentionally exposing people to something that could be potentially dangerous.

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      Over 100 children died this year from the seasonal flu, 90% of whom had no prior medical conditions that would have made you think they were susceptible. If my child died of the flu and you gave it to her, yeah, I’d sue you from here to the ends of the earth. 

      • Scoconis

        Then I would hope that you understand why the parents of children harmed by vaccines go to the ends of the earth to protect others and try to get justice, even when called “quacks”.  Then the children that have adverse often fatal reactions to vaccines should have that same opportunity for justice. Oh yes they do in “vaccine court”. A court of law run by the government, paid for by big pharma to protect big pharma. And courts were supposed to be non-biased…..

      • Pplatplay

         Please cite your source of 90% had no prior medical conditions.

        • http://www.facebook.com/jay.kanta Jay Kanta

          Why, you can’t cite anything useful?  Why should anyone respond to your requests?

          • Richard

            we have plenty to cite… what will you site to support all this preaching and  that can undergo rigorous scrutiny on all counts to assure its worth our deeper consideration?

      • Richard Gale

        And since the CDC does not differentiate flu mortality from pneumonia mortality, but groups them together, what is your certainty of 100 children dying from seasonal flu?  And do you know whether any of those 100 were vaccinated?
        Return to your trailer camp and drink some more viral kool aid.

      • Richard

        Where is a reliable source for that?.. And dont lead me to the CDC which doesn’t distinguish between flu and pneumonia deaths. Was PCR performed on your unreferenced number of 100 deaths to determine this?  all we ask is that you guys provide sources, and stop just tossing numbers and figures around and pretending you actually know something. 

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    A Ten-Year High for Vaccine Injury Filings in 2013, according to Acting Director of Division of Vaccine Injury Compensation, Vito Caserta.

    “He added that the majority of claims filed are filed by adults, mainly associated with injuries alleged to have been caused by influenza vaccine.”

    http://www.hrsa.gov/vaccinecompensation/accvmeetingbookmarch2013.pdf

  • Oassiss

    So the parents of unvaccinated kids could be sued because another person gets sick, but the pharmaceutical companies cannot be sued if the vaccine is not 100 % effective, and/or injures a person.  Can he tell me how this is fair? 
    Now, what about if someone catches a disease for which they were vaccinated against from another vaccinated person, since everyone knows that vaccines are not 100% effective.  Who gets sued?
    His argument does not hold up.  Along his lines of “ethics”, he should argue, as well, to hold pharmaceutical companies that make these vaccines accountable for damages they cause and for not being 100 % effective.

    • ChrisKid

      If you drive your car without taking proper precautions and run into me, you, not the car company, are responsible for my injuries, and you are the one I can sue for compensation.  If you allow your children to mingle in groups of other children, knowing you haven’t taken reasonable precautions against them spreading disease, you are the one responsible.

      • Pplatplay

         this is what I don’t get, if your child is vaccinated, what are you worried about from my child who is not?  Doesn’t your vaccine work?

        • ChrisKid

          How many times do people have to keep explaining simple concepts like community immunity and concern for those who cannot (yet) avail themselves of the protection of vaccines?  You just keep making yourself look bad when you admit that you couldn’t care less about anyone else in the world but you and yours.  You also aren’t doing yourself any favors when you publicly admit that you can’t grasp that there’s a difference between 0 and 100%. 

          Is this too difficult for you?

          • Lisaj

            Who can’t be vaccinated? The sick, the old, those who are too young? If you’re too ill to get the flu, you’re on borrowed time anyway! Babies that are considered too young ought to be at home instead of institutional care anyway.

            I’m not getting 25 mg of mercury injected in my bloodstream because others are too ill. You’re already ill, why should I get sick too?

          • ChrisKid

            Why take up all that time and space to type all those words?  All you need to say is, “I don’t give a damn about anyone but ME!”  That will cover it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/jay.kanta Jay Kanta

            It’s a good thing that you don’t want elemental mercury injected.  Thimerosal, however, is not elemental mercury.  

            Do you even know anything about this topic?

          • Heraldblog

             She “knows” that vaccines are injected directly into the bloodstream with rusty syringes. She read it on whale.to .

          • Heraldblog

             No vaccine is injected into the bloodstream. Epic fail, Lisa

        • Heraldblog

          Pp, the answer to your question is cleverly hidden in the story you are commenting on. Try reading it again.

        • mplo

          By refusing to get your child vaccinated against such diseases as Pertussis, Tetanus, etc., you’re putting your own child at risk for permanent incapacitation or death.  Isn’t that sufficient?

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      You apparently have a reading difficulty. No vaccine company claims that their vaccine is 100% effective. It’s impossible to make that claim, since there are so many conditions that would lessen it’s effectiveness. However, it is well known that even when the vaccine doesn’t prevent a disease, it does prevent the worst symptoms of the disease. In whooping cough epidemics, caused mostly by vaccine deniers, but somewhat by a less effective vaccine (forced onto the world by vaccine deniers overstating effects, but that’s another story), those kids who are vaccinated but still get the disease, have a shorter course of the disease, and usually survive.

      Moreover, to further point out your challenges in reading, you completely fail to understand that many kids cannot be vaccinated for certain diseases until they are 6 months or 1 year old.

      Read. It’s good for you.

      • Chris

         Your logic is flawed (and dangerous) if you think anything can be caused by anyone’s non-participation in anything.

        • lynneb

          There is epidemiological evidence stretching back more than a century that epidemic disease outbreaks are caused by non-participation in vaccination.  That’s why the 1905 Supreme Court case Jacobson v. Massachusetts – 197 U.S. 11 was decided as it was, in support of the following Massachusetts regulation:

          “”Whereas, smallpox has been prevalent to some extent in the city of Cambridge and still continues to increase; and whereas it is necessary for the speedy extermination of the disease that all persons not protected by vaccination should be vaccinated, and whereas, in the opinion of the board, the public health and safety require the vaccination or revaccination of all the inhabitants of Cambridge; be it ordered, that all the inhabitants of the city who have not been successfully vaccinated since March 1, 1897, be vaccinated or revaccinated.””

          It was held that it was lawful for the State to compel vaccination and penalize noncompliance, on the basis of overwhelming public safety concerns and the fact that the nonvaccinated posed a risk of continuing epidemic disease circulation.

          • Pplatplay

            lynneb, I will repost my response to Kid below for you.  Take a look at the trends from 1920 to 1999.  1905 has little to do with today and modern sanitation and antibiotics.

            I suggest you read JAMA January 6, 1999 – Vol 281 No 1
            “Trends in
            Infectious Disease Mortality”  Your precious vaccines, while having 
            impact in  3rd world countries, had little to do with the lowered
            mortality rate in the US.  Sanitation and antibiotics were the primary
            cause in improved mortality, not vaccines.  Well intentioned people work
            on creating a vaccine, but well intentioned people also worked on
            proving the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

          • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

            You conflate morbidity and mortality. Sanitation and antibiotics do reduce the mortality, but not the morbidity of the disease. And the mortality never reached 0 or even close to 0.

            You need to learn some science. If I might suggest, you can get a BS degree in biology in about 4 years. Three years if you do what I did and go to college during the summer. 

            Then get a Ph.D. in a biomedical science. I did. It took me 5 years, and it was really hard work. I didn’t sleep for 48 hours several times trying to find a particular protein that might be implicated in aging.

            I then went into research. I discovered a device that saved a few thousand people’s lives every single year. 

            Now, I admit this takes work. I have an IQ that’s quite high, and I don’t even think IQ’s are very useful. I worked my butt off for 25 years in research and development. The thing is. I’m not even at the top of my profession.

            So, here’s my advice. Get a science degree. Do some research. And maybe you can understand the basics of biological science, so that you don’t make a fundamental error in understanding real science.

          • Richard Gale

            yeah.. and the medical knowledge of 1905 to scientifically rule on the Jacobson case was light years ahead of ours to make an informed, intelligent decision. Read ab0ut why the city of Leicester UK had the lowest smallpox mortality rate during the large small pox epidemic of the 1880s and on. It was because they abandoned smallpox vaccination and put there attention on improving the town’s hygienic conditions.  

          • Heraldblog

            Richard, how does better sanitation prevent the spread of an airborne virus?

          • Heraldblog

             Serious question, Richard. We’re still waiting for your explanation.

          • mplo

            Abandoning smallpox vaccines and improving the town’s hygienic conditions lowered the mortality rate of smallpox?  That’s really hard to believe, Richard.  The fact that anybody got sick and died of smallpox at all under this set of circumstances means that they put other people at risk of permanent incapacitation and/or death from a horrible, deadly disease.  Sorry, Richard, but I just don’t buy what you’ve said here.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=697038111 Stacey Hill Shearrion

    My son developed leukemia 6 months after being prescribed lindaine shampoo twice in a one month period by his pediatrician…the medical professionals insisted that it was impossible to prove causality even though the insert said the product could cause blood cancer. A few years later my son’s oncology team put him on ritalin for symptoms of ADD, he had a massive stroke the next day. Again, the doctor’s insisted that there was no way to prove cause and effect. Suddenly these same American medical experts can tell you exactly who gave you measles or the flu? I think not.

    • Whitney

      There is a different between identifying causation, which is very difficult, and epidemiologic-linked cases, which is easier. So yes, sounds like the medical experts are doing a pretty good job.

  • Jeff Simon

    Can we ask this question after, if, when, or ever, that a vaccine maker is liable for a vaccine injury?

    • km

       All Vaccine makers got Congress to grant them immunity! Our drug companies can easily buy the 538 politicians on Capitol Hill. So you cannot sue any of these companies if your child suffers an injury because of a vaccine.

      • ChrisKid

        So, you’re accusing every single pharmaceutical company, every single legislator since 1986, Barbara Loe Fisher (she was instrumental in getting the compensation program established), and everyone involved in the NVICP of corruption?  Your claim is that U.S. citizens have an easier method of being compensated for claimed vaccine injuries than going through civil courts because the Congress was bought?  Interesting point of view.

        How does that explain the similar use of vaccines in every developed country in the world?  Are their lawmakers and health agencies all bought and paid for, too?  

        • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

          Use of vaccines is just getting started in many places… which is why more time and money is being spent on studying, “(1) What to reward, (2) Who to reward, (3) How to reward, and (4) What unintended consequences might performance incentives create” than on the actual effects of these products on the human being. 
          In Mozambique, for example, community health workers are financially rewarded for vaccination completion rates; In South Sudan the NGO health systems managers are financially rewarded for vaccination rates; other countries reward the provincial governments, public hospitals, primary care providers, public health centers.”(GAVI) provides recipient countries with an initial unconditional payment followed by additional financial rewards based on quality of vaccination data and improvements in immunization coverage. The Millennium Challenge Corporation also uses a performance-based model for determining ongoing eligibility for aid among recipient countries (MCC 2012).” See: http://www.nber.org/papers/w18932.pdf?new_window=1

          • ChrisKid

            Fine, now answer the question I actually asked.

  • Scott

    I’m surprised you didn’t throw the ISBN in there – you’re slacking, chief.

  • Inuve

    Absolutely. Those that don’t vaccinate are taking advantage of those who do. It’s everyone’s responsibility. Some people have gotten complacent because they’ve never watched a child die of a preventable illness.

    • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

      Everyone’s responsibility to undertake a medical procedure that carries with it known risks? Who benefits? Cui bono?

      • YankeeTexan

        I’m with, Vax…So, where does voluntary sterilization fall in your “responsibility” spectrum, Inuve?

    • Firelily777

      Bullshite not taking advantage of anything, if you are crazy enough to have your kid injected with around 50 vaccines before they are 6 that’s your business and has nothing to do with people that would rather go a more natural way. Vaccines are not even effective by the manufactures admittance. The most I had was 10 and that was for my entire life.  Babies nowadays have 10 before they turn 6months old.

      • ChrisKid

        Ten vaccine for 14 different diseases on the childhood schedule in the U.S.  I don’t know where you’re getting all those others, but they don’t exist around here.

        Nice try with the scare tactics, though.

        • Firelily777
          • ChrisKid

            Your point?  It’s still ten vaccines against 14 different diseases.   Make it look as scary as you please, it doesn’t change the facts.  Use of multivalent vaccines makes it even fewer vaccines against 14 diseases.

  • https://www.facebook.com/VaccineSkeptic Vaccine Skeptic Society

    As long as unvaccinated (or even vaccinated, since it’s not 100%) people who are sickened by the vaccine virus (which can and does happen) can sue the vaccinated then go for it.

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      Please use the word skeptic correctly. You are a pseudoskeptic, better known as a scientific denier. How real skepticism works is that you value all evidence highly, but give much more weight to high quality scientific evidence. A real skeptic uses or highly values the scientific method which is that all evidence is used to either support or nullify a hypothesis. 

      You, a pseudoskeptic, only values evidence that supports your beliefs, your hypothesis that vaccines are bad. You lady are simply a denier. No different than creationists who deny evolution. Global warming deniers. All of them. 

      There is no way that one could accept your statements knowing how badly you misuse the English language to benefit your unfounded, unscientific, and hateful beliefs.

      • Chris

        Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

      • Richard Gale

        wow… that is mouthful!!!.. and you are not hateful?… 
        I feel someone here needs to undergo some serious behavioral modification.  Did your prozac prescription run out?

        • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

          Ah the ad hominems. Good for you dude. 

          So you are obviously in the employ of Big Pharma. You want kids to get sick so Big Pharma makes more money. Now you’re pushing an anti-psychotic drug.

          So how much money is Big Pharma paying to post this nonsense? Do you get paid by the post? Or is it a general retainer? Is it enough to sell your morals down the road?

          • Richard

            I am probably found on more hate lists with corporations and gov health officials than you can imagine… But we should really be asking you that question… Not only are you a die hard advocate of vaccines, but also GMOs… What goons are you working for? With many of your blogs you simply side with corporate dogmatic scientism.. and show an extraordinary deficit of critical thinking and independent inquiry.  You sorry soul. 

  • Lilysmamamama

    If my unvaccinated kid gets sick from a child who was just vaccinated and is shedding…Should parents of vaccinated children be liable if they sicken other children? Let it be. I’ll chose my way to raise my kids and you chose you way and the world continues to turn. 

  • Lilysmamamama

    The Trolls are out in full force. Railroad the conversation and spin and spin and spin. 

    The Gentleperson’s Guide To Forum Spies. 

  • Andrea Lalama

    If my unvaccinated kid gets sick from a child who was just vaccinated and is shedding…Should parents of vaccinated children be liable if they sicken other children? Let it be. I’ll chose my way to raise my kids and you chose you way and the world continues to turn.

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      Shedding????? LMAO. Give me a break.

      • Firelily777

        Actually my kids caught chickenpox from my niece who had been vaccinated the week before. It happens.

        • mplo

          That’s highly unlikely, Firelily777!  I don’t buy it.

      • Andrea Lalama

        live vaccine viruses can be detected for about two weeks in the throat of a vaccinated child.

      • Andrea Lalama

        get informed before you “laugh” because you presented yourself as ignorant.
        Viral Shedding and Live Vaccines
        Viral shedding, in which someone becomes contagious and can pass a virus to someone else, is sometimes a concern when parents think about live vaccines. (from pediatrics.about.com website! a pro vax site! admits live viruses shed!

  • Firelily777

    Ridiculous might as well sue nature or God. First off people have been known to drop dead after a vaccine. That in itself should be enough to not push them on children. Beyond that they cause autoimmune dysfunction sometimes 20 years after the shot. They also cause autism, diabetes, cancer, paralysis, and sometimes they cause the very disease you are trying to prevent. Do a little research over cats and vaccines. Vaccines were causing so much cancer at the injection site that they had to start injecting them at the tail or back legs instead of between the shoulder blades.  Polio the holy grail that’s lifted up over all pro vaccine conversations. Polio isn’t even that freaking dangerous, its only a real danger to about 2 percent of those infected. Over 90 percent of the people infected with Polio show no signs or symptoms of illness, 4 to 8 percent have flu like symptoms and a full recovery, in 2 percent of those infected the infection goes into the nervous system.  2 years ago I think it was around 60-70 thousand kids were paralyzed by the vaccine in India.  Vaccines are not safe, they are not effective and every single one of them causes brain damage, hopefully the damage is minimum and not readily apparent. Dr. Russel Blaylock a neuro-specialist has a lot of information. People have lost their minds. 

    • ChrisKid

      Oh, look, you managed to find a fact.  Yes, polio only causes paralysis in something like 2% of those who contract it.  With a billion people in India, how many would that be?  You complain about real concerns being dismissed, but then you trivialize thousands of children paralyzed or killed because acknowledging them doesn’t suit your agenda.  As for polio vaccine paralyzing 60 or 70 thousand children in India 2 years ago?  Got a cite for that?  Anything close to evidence?  Anything at all?  

    • mplo

      I strenuously disagree with the notion that Polio isn’t that dangerous and that getting vaccinated against polio and other communicable diseases is.  Many people have either died or have ended up being permanently incapacitated to some degree or other due to NOT having been vaccinated against it.  There’s no evidence that vaccines aren’t safe.  They’re safer than the disease.  The notion of people dropping dead due to a vaccine is pure poppycock.  Chances are that they’ve probably dropped dead from something else that’s completely unrelated to the vaccine.  This kind of attitude on your part, as well as many other people’s, would be laughable if the consequences of these attitudes and actions weren’t so devastating.

  • http://www.facebook.com/TrueDoveMomma Paloma Smith

    Just like a parent who refuses to get treatment for their sick child for religious purposes. Parents have a responsibility not only to their children, but also to prevent their beliefs from becoming someone elses tragedy.

    Should the people who create the vaccines be held responsible if there is an outbreak? Yes and no. These people are not the same as the people who shove all kinds of meds down your throat when you get a boo-boo. Through trial and countless years of research, these people have prolonged lives, prevented disease, etc. Show some respect.

    And stop looking for excuses for your reckless behavior. Your child should be vaccinated, period. That is why diseases in this country are much less of a concern than in third-world countries. Because they don’t have the resources that we do. They don’t have the money for the different vaccinations. They suffer every day. It is because of responsible parents that your child is not at risk. Step up and make the right decision not for YOUR sake, but for your child’s and everyone elses.

    • YankeeTexan

      I dare you to volunteer your child for the next vaccine trial. Deal?

      • http://www.facebook.com/TrueDoveMomma Paloma Smith

         My child’s vaccinations are up to date. There was a recent trial flu shot that goes through the nose as a spray. She got it, and it worked.

        Your point?

        • YankeeTexan

          My point? How do you know it worked? What was your baseline measurement?

          Actually, my point became irrelevant because I can’t decide which is more disturbing: your obvious pride in your previous answer or the fact that you felt THAT compelled to provide an answer (which says volumes in itself).

          Interesting…

      • Firelily777

        They have an anthrax vaccine trial for kids coming up. Guess they could sign up.

        • ChrisKid

          Do they really?  Or have you seen something about some discussion somewhere that they might think about doing that and jumped to a random conclusion that fits your fears?

    • Firelily777

      Yeah it has nothing to do with clean water and proper waste disposal. Regular showers, decent food. Nah couldn’t be that… has to be injecting toxins and disease.

      • ChrisKid

        Well, it can’t be injecting toxins and diseases, because nobody is doing that.  Giving vaccines to children and adults, yes.  Now, if you will, please tell us all about the massive changes in India regarding clean water and proper waste disposal in the past five years.  While you’re at it, please explain all the massive cultural and infrastructure changes in the U.S. after 2006 that led to a dramatic decline in rotavirus in infants.  You know, all those people who never used to take regular showers?  

    • Lisa

      No Paloma, they don’t have clean water, hon. If your little one has toxins viruses and heavy metals injected into her body, bypassing her immune system, then she’s good to go, right?

  • Cbalmer

    On the other side of the coin, if I have my child vaccinated and s/he has a negative consequence directly related to the vaccine – high fever, seizures, brain damage – who can I sue?  The vaccine manufacturer, the doctor who immunized my child, the government that required the vaccine???

    • Firelily777

      You can’t sue anyone because it was a coincident and had nothing to do with the vaccines. At least that’s what parents are told when it happens to their child. You have to hope that the doctor admits its the vaccine and hope that its a visible injury that can be proven within 3 years. Proving neurological damage when almost all adverse reactions in babies are  considered normal is almost impossible. It takes longer then the 3 years for doctors to do the wait and watch and to go over all other possibilities no matter how crazy.  

  • ChrisKid

    You cavalierly dismiss polio because it only seriously affects 2 out of 100 people who contract it, yet you’re terrified of  vaccination because there might possibly be a 1/1,000,000 chance of serious adverse reaction.  There is no evidence of autoimmune dysfunction.  You’re just fearmongering with that.  

    As for that stupid comment about cats and dogs, it would seem that my vet didn’t get the memo, as all three of our cats were vaccinated toward the front of their bodies.  
    I can agree with you that some people have lost their minds, but they aren’t the ones you think they are.  
    Get your facts straight, or better yet, find some, then come back.  

    • Firelily777

      http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0008382 
      http://smallanimal.vethospital.ufl.edu/clinical-services/oncology/types-of-cancer-and-treatment/injection-site-sarcomas-cats/,http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/unvaccinated-children-suffer-fewer-infectious-diseases-study/
      http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/unvaccinated-children-suffer-fewer-infectious-diseases-study/

      I actually know what I”m talking about, its you that needs to do a bit more research and if your vet is still injecting your animals between the shoulder blades then they should do a bit more research and stop  injecting them in that area.
      The past couple years DPT was causing pertussis by helping  b. parapertussis  colonize and spread(same symptoms as pertussis). So you dismiss all those Indian kids? Yeah I think they’d have probably rather taken their chances with a 98% chance of being not only fine but truly immune after the infection. Herd immunity is a joke. People in their 20′s to late 60′s do not get all the booster shots. Last years flu shot was like 6 percent effective. I guess my son won the lottery of vaccine injury yeah he’s  in the not so exclusive club of autism, don’t worry tho enrollment is open and more and more kids join everyday. 1 in 50 school aged kids now have it. I use to get the shots, trusted my doctor. The last shots my son had tripedia(Dtap… fun fact tripedia lists autism on the insert that I was told they didn’t have, I never received this insert) left him screaming bloody murder for hours, don’t worry his doctor said it was normal. The fever was normal, oh its normal for toddlers to stop talking after an illness(illness? he was vaccinated doc). It’s normal to develop multiple ear infections after vaccinating, it’s normal to stop talking, and interacting. I was told normal for the next year and a half(insisted my son was suddenly deaf and wasted my time on several ENT specialist). It took another year for a doctor to take me serious enough to give me a specialist referral. You have 3 years to file in that joke of a vaccine court from first symptom or adverse reaction(hard to do when everything is normal yeah?). My doctor did nothing to help me, he said oh no couldn’t be vaccines.  So there are thousands and thousands of people that have been injured by vaccines that have no help or way to be made whole or compensated for what vaccines take away.  If people want to vaccinate that’s their choice but don’t you dare try to force it on others. You are wrong. I would have rather my child got all the childhood illnesses instead of autism. His life will never be easy, everything he does and learns is 100x’s harder on him. I wouldn’t trade him for anything and I love him more than breathing, but I remember what he was before he was ill and it’s hard to watch the home movies and see the pictures before vaccines made him sick. Vaccine injury is not rare, its just hidden or denied. If I had known that the thymus gland doesn’t even function properly till between the ages of 3 and 5 I would’ve never allowed all those boosters. That’s why they inject infants every 2months, they don’t develop any immunity they can’t because their bodies are not mature enough to work with the junk being injected into them. So they just inject and reinject and reinject over and over again because the vaccines are doing practically nothing but damaging them. The CDC doesn’t even study them properly. You should watch the congressional hearing over autism and the CDC’s coleen boyle’s response. If you trust the CDC you are foolish. They trade people from CDC and vaccine manufactures back and forth.  Look at the state of health vaccinated children enjoy.  More children then ever are dying of cancer, have neurological issues are generally not healthy.  We have the highest vaccine rate in the world and are 34th in infant mortality. These vaccines are not doing their jobs huh? Pushing the chickenpox vaccine should’ve been a wake up call that its all about the money, not about the kids. 

      • ChrisKid

        If you’re trying to claim that any vaccine insert shows autism as a side effect, then no, you don’t know what you’re talking about.   The insert lists autism as one of the adverse events reported *after* vaccination, in clinical trials.  The insert also includes the statement that just because those events happened after vaccination it does not mean they were caused by it.  In fact, study after study shows no evidence of causal connection between vaccines and autism.  I’m sorry, but you’ve been sold a bill of goods by people who want to make money from frightened or desperate parents.  

        Vaccines are, in fact, the most studied and tested of pharmaceutical products, because they are designed to be used by healthy people.  You need to go looking for some better sources of information and learn something that’s really true, not this fearmongering nonsense.

        • Firelily777

          Maybe you aught to watch the CDC’s response to congress.  Of course the statement says that  because they don’t want you to look to hard at this cause ….ya know……….it didn’t REALLYYY cause a problem, it just happened. Study after study?  Ummm There were 24 studies done and that slimy guy that’s wanted by the FBI for fraud had his hand in 21 of them… yeah sorry but I don’t think so. 

          Sigh ok we’ll play semantics.. Tripedia gave my child encephalitis which in turn caused him to be autistic. People who want to make money off frightened or desperate parents. Well yes you are frightened and desperate when the day of being vaccinated your bubbly, talking , happy child becomes horribly ill with fever and screaming(this scream will give you nightmares) and all the doctors say its normal. Obviously thinking people will realize if you are told to give tylenol and motrin before and after vaccines that they are causing your child to become ill.  Who has these tests I’ve been looking for them forever. The CDC doesn’t have them, they’ve only studied 2 vaccines and 1 adjuvent out of… just how many are there now? Nevermind, I don’t know and I don’t need them.  

          • ChrisKid

            Nope.  Try again.  Vaccination does not cause autism, and autism is not a brain injury.

            They’ve only studied 2 vaccines and 1 adjuvant?  What, then, were those epidemiological studies on the whole schedule of vaccines?  

          • ChrisKid

            That slimy guy who’s wanted by the FBI?  You mean Poul Thorsen?  Again, I’d love to see some evidence that he was involved in 7/8 of the studies, worldwide, that have been done over the past decade or more.  I’d also love to see some evidence that his alleged embezzlement had anything to do with the results of studies in which he was a minor player.  Especially when the embezzling came after the study was finished.  

            I mean, it’s not as if he was paid directly to find results that would directly support a lawsuit on behalf of autistic children, is it?  Not like that other slimy guy.

          • Richard

            No.. but evidence was submitted to a Congressional subcommittee interrogating on the CDC’s failure to investigate the autism-vaccine relationship more seriously in 2012 that Thorsen was involved in 21 of 23/24 (cant recall exact number) CDC sponsored studies. .. watch the CSPAN video on Youtube if interested. 

          • ChrisKid

            So, somebody, somewhere, said something that you can’t clearly remember what it was, in a statement that doesn’t even border on fact, but you can’t really show us the evidence for what you think you might maybe remember, sort of.  Good job.  

        • mplo

          Well said, ChrisKid!  Thanks.

      • ChrisKid

        “Over the past 20 years…death rates declined dramatically and 5-year survival rates increased for most childhood cancers. For example, the 5-year survival rates for all childhood cancers combined increased from 58.1 percent in 1975–77 to 79.6 percent in 1996–2003 (2).”  CDC.govWhat was that you were saying about more children dying of cancer? 

  • Panda5

    Vaccinations are not risk-free. The flu shot can make some people get the flu, the chickenpox shot may not stop someone from getting chickenpox but the symptoms will be less severe.  The vaccines are safer than the alternative of becoming seriously sick and making others sick. I had all my vacs when I was little and my children have also and I know a lot of people who had theirs.  Matter of fact when I went back to college in the medical field, I had to give proof of some of my vaccines. Isn’t it better to vaccinate rather than have an epidemic because people are passing diseases to one another?  People all have the right to receive or not receive vaccinations, according to their own beliefs, but I think it should be a law that if someone is sick then they have to not go to work, not go to school and not be out in public until they are completely over the sickness. I, for one, cannot have a flu shot because I have an allergy to eggs and if I am not sick then I certainly don’t want to be around someone who can make me sick and have my asthma kick up and end up in the hospital because of someone else, which has happened to me more than once. If people don’t want vaccines to help stop the spread of illness/disease, then stay away from others when you are sick. If your children who are not vaccinated happen to contact a serious illness/disease because you refused to get them some type of protection then it is your fault only for whatever symptoms and/or complications they have and it is your fault for allowing them to be around others and making others have to suffer too.

    • Chris

       Just curious – when you were sick did you quarantine yourself?

  • Cjrivera12

     I am actually against it. After fighting with the board of Health in NY for trying to force my children to take the HPV Vaccine (a very new and untested vaccine – with at least 60 deaths attributed to it since it was released) or else they could not go to high school…and now they want both boys and girls to take it. The drug hasnt had 10 years to say it is safe, and even with the deaths reported, the school boards want it added to the already ridiculous number of vaccinations we already have…did you know that todays kids are given more than double the vaccines WE had when we were young? GIVE ME A BREAK! do you want me to add the staggering number of children becoming diagnosed with autism – shortly after a vaccination? I dont deny that vaccination has its merits – Im sure Polio is definitely not a disease I would like to take a crack at, but something has got to give… I dont know if its the pediatricians wanting to shove multiple vaccines over a short period of time, or could it be “Club Pharma” trying to get over on us…people still get sick after taking the vaccine, and people still buy its merits… A good friend of mine, Dr. Lawrence Palevsky (http://drpalevsky.com) is a great place to start if you want to understand the whole objection to vaccinations controversy. He helped me get a waiver for my children – LEGALLY – so that the worry of having them stricken with an illness, or death , may not occur. Do your homework, and choose…we all have a right to do so. As for liability – well, I see it this way – if your children are ALREADY vaccinated – why worry if my child isnt…your kids are supposed to be “safe”, right? chances are – your kids will get chicken pox before mine, because you allowed them to be exposed to the virus by way of the vaccine – so – shouldnt the parent of the vaccinated child be responsible? food for thought. DO YOUR HOMEWORK…

    • Guest

      Why the push to make boys and girls receive the HPV vaccine to go to school?  Unlike other diseases, you can’t pass on HPV by coughing all over the keyboard in computer class or coughing on your classmate.  By trying to force the HPV vaccine, it is clear the schedule has more to do with profits and not protection. 

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    Let us not forget that since the Supreme Court just seven (7) days ago affirmed broad availability of attorney’s fees in vaccine cases, this “conversation” may simply be an effort to engage lawyers to choose the wrong side of history. 

    See http://www.scotusblog.com/2013/05/opinion-analysis-justices-affirm-broad-availability-of-attorneys-fees-in-vaccine-cases/ 

    …and ongoing conversation at:  http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/billofhealth/2013/05/23/liability-for-failure-to-vaccinate/

  • Lulusmom

    I agree with Art Caplan 110%. People can be as backward as they want, until they endanger public health. Disease is still a real threat. Vaccines are not a perfect preventive but it’s the best we’ve got. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anne-Dachel/100000492400392 Anne Dachel

    I’d like to remind Dr. Caplan that a doctor is not liable if a child suffers an adverse reaction from a vaccine. The medical profession has been indemnified by the federal government. Instead parents have to appeal to a special vaccine injury compensation program where they’re up against government lawyers, defending a government program, using government money. Few injured parties ever get their day in court.
    If Caplan wants non-vaccinating parents held responsible for the spread of disease, then doctors should also be held accountable for vaccine injuries.
    Anne Dachel, Media editor: Age of Autism

    • Heraldblog

       I’d like to remind the staff at WBUR that Anne Dachel is chief propagandist for a notorious anti-vaccine website that is associated with Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield. Most of her talking points have been repeatedly debunked.

      • Richard

        Reliable independent sources please!  debunked by who?  all your vaccine saints indebted to the pharmaceutical industrial complex? 

        • Heraldblog

          ” I’d like to remind Dr. Caplan that a doctor is not liable if a child
          suffers an adverse reaction from a vaccine. The medical profession has
          been indemnified by the federal government.

          Not true:

          http://tinyurl.com/rollecase

      • mplo

        Thanks, Heraldblog.   

        Ann Dachel, Jenny McCarthy and Andrew Wakefield must be stopped in their tracks, before they inflict any more damage than they’ve already inflicted.  This coming from one who’s one of the biggest free-speech advocates that’s ever walked Planet Earth!

  • LizP

    The problem with this logic is that the VACCINATED contract the diseases they are vaccinated-against; for instance, the MEASLES:This, in April, from Islamabad, “more than 50 per cent of the children brought to the hospital were those who had already been vaccinated against measles.”http://tribune.com.pk/story/541062/measles-outbreak-city-hospitals-continue-to-receive-new-cases/…So what are you going to do?  Sue the vaccinated kid who gave your kid the Measles?!Get educated, with information FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT, before you spout such nonsense!!!Simpsonwood and what harm thimerosal can cause (even in tiny doses):http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/chapter2.htmlResearch says the vaccine schedule does impact brain development, gut integrity, and behavior (Autism):http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628439Genetic susceptibility:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15184908Ingredients in your vaccines:http://www.cdc.gov/VACCINES/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdfAt least 28 vaccines by 2 years of age (don’t miss the fine print)http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdfReported “adverse events” after vaccination (approximately 1 – 10% of those which have likely occurred: http://www.medalerts.org/Search VAERS Database
    http://www.medalerts.org
    The search engine examines vaccines, symptoms, doses, dates, places, and more…And here is a study from Harvard proving that the portion of the immune system triggered by vaccination does not, in fact, do anything to prevent the vaccinee from contracting the disease:http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/03/beyond-antibodies.htmlI found this, bring it to your doctor and see if s/he is willing to guarantee the safety of the vaccineshttp://preventdisease.com/pdf/Warranty-of-Vaccine-Safety-English.pdfFurther, and to your own point, would be the fact that even if my vaccinated kid (yes my kids DID get their shots) contracted chicken pox (which all my kids did) and was playing with your kid (vaccinated or not) and your kid contracted chicken pox this is simply coincidental; you could not prove my kid gave your kid a disease. The same goes for measles and any other disease. Bottom line, you can not prove unvaccinated children pose a risk to vaccinated or other unvaccinated children.Every disease we vaccinate against is contageous for a number of days prior to symptoms becoming evident. Therefore, where the disease we contract is contracted is a giant unknown. Pinning the blame to the backs of children who are not vaccinated is ridiculous.ALL people, vaccinated or not, can be vectors – ANYBODY can carry disease, even those who have been vaccinated. Especially because many of these diseases may pass with only mild symptoms, people shed the virus’ EVERYWHERE. Living proximate to others puts each of us in contact with these diseases regularly.It’s a dirty world, so wash your hands and keep them out of your eyes, nose, and mouth. Don’t share needles. Don’t swap bodily fluids with strangers.If after reading all this information, you still believe in the vaccine miracle and you are comfortable with the attendant risks, vaccinate your child – at least if your child suffers an adverse event, you will have knowingly accepted this risk – if your child contracts the disease anyway (as did my vaccinated children), you will learn vaccination does not prevent catching the disease, nor does it lessen the course of the disease (my vaccinated child had the longest case of the chickenpox, and measles)! If your infant suddenly dies, you knew this might happen. And if your previously “perfect” child suddenly spirals into lifelong disability and/or autoimmunity, you bought and paid for it…Oh, and I almost forgot – if your child does suffer an “adverse event,” you may not sue the doctor, pharmacist, manufacturer, or anybody else for damages – if your child dies and you can PROVE the death was caused by vaccines in “vaccine court,” you will be “compensated” $250,000.00 – you will receive no apology; if your child survives but is lifetime disabled, odds are not in your favor for receiving anything from this “court” to help defray the added burden vaccination imposed on your life nor for the loss to your child of their capable and independent future (since the first Vaccine Injury Compensation claims were made in 1989, 3,101 compensation payments have been made, 9,705 claims have been dismissed)….See this article:http://www.nvic.org/injury-compensation/losangelestimes.aspx and the follow-on article that explains you no longer have the right to sue in Civil court: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504564_162-20034847-504564.html…Vaccine Injury Claims Face Grueling Fight www.nvic.org  Victims increasingly view U.S. compensation program as adversarial and tightfisted.Here is more research you might want to look into – it is performed by INDEPENDENT, and RESPECTED organizations: http://www.greatergoodmovie.org/learn-more/research/

    • mplo

      No…don’t sue the unvaccinated kid…sue the parents of the unvaccinated kid(s) for neglect, child abuse (of their own kids, of course), and for first-degree murder if someone else’s kid either become permanently disabled or dies from a horrible disease such as pertussis, tetanus, polio, diptheria, or measles.  

  • Chris

    Sure seems like the rational discussion is coming mostly from one side
    of this argument.  The other side often reminds me of my 3-year-old
    throwing a temper tantrum, with the snide remarks and absolute
    closed-minded certainty.  Hmm…

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      Anti-vaxxers are most certainly close minded. Good that you noticed chris.

      • Pplatplay

         You still have not posted any links to support your position, just your biased opinion and name calling so far.  Why don’t you post some of your “quackwatch” material?  That would bring a laugh from anyone that has any serious training in the sciences.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Victoria-J-West/1306135315 Victoria J West

    First explain why, if a child has an adverse reaction to a vaccine the manufacturer has a lliavility shield.

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      Complete misunderstanding of real immunology. I would suggest getting a bachelor’s degree in a science, then a Ph.D. in immunology, then do research for several years. then come back here and explain that you have evidence of the immune system as you believe.

      Otherwise, quit supporting Big Pharma’s grand plan to make money off of children sick and dying from vaccine-preventable diseases. I’m sure you’re taking money from them for this post. Can you tell me how much Big Pharma money you’re getting? Please post all of your bank statements publicly so we can find out if Big Pharma is bribing you. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/maurine.meleck Maurine Meleck

    How about making the government responsible and the doctors who give the shots responsible for vaccine damage. For the 1 in 50 children now diagnosed with autism?  For the 1 in 31 boys now diagnosed with autism?
    You mean to tell me the vaccines don’t work?  Why then give untested and sometimes unsafe vaccines to babies and young children?
    Maurine Meleck, SC
    grandmother to 1 in 31(vaccine injured)

    • mplo

      Autism is NOT caused by vaccines!  The so-called “link”  between vaccines and autism was disproved and tossed out by the wayside long ago.  When are you and the other anti-vaccine people going to get that into your heads?  Some points of view are dangerously irresponsible and backwards, and the anti-vaccine propaganda is one of them.

  • Healthymail

    I’m sorry, I need proof that a germ jumps from one person to another, at an exact time, at an exact location, and I want to know if cameras were watching it.  

  • Scoconis

    Autism: 1 in 54 
    Measles: 1-2 in 1000 ??????

    You take your pick, but I can guarantee that any famil adversley affected by vaccines, whether or not you believe they have anything to do with autism, will choose to naturally get measles.  Contracting and dealing with measles is a walk in the park compared to a lifelong battle with autism.

    • andythebouncer

      Of course, the assumption that you make is that families who have children with autism have actually been affected by vaccines, and none of the other trillion environmental or genetic factors that could have affected a particular medical condition… so, I’m assuming that you have some actual, scientific evidence, not here-say, not anecdotal evidence by a homeopath, not the opinion of a chiropractor with a certificate in nutrition… actual science, that shows a definitive link between autism and vaccines? Because nobody else does. Especially not the study that everybody cites when drawing the connection between vaccines and autism:
      http://www2.aap.org/immunization/families/autismwakefield.htmlAh, let me guess, all of that reason and science is part of the cover-up conspiracy… yeh…

      Don’t you find it funny that there hasn’t been one, single, properly conducted, double-blind study done that has shown that vaccines are harmful, but a sea of studies that show they are relatively safe? If the problem with all of those studies is that they are part of some vast conspiracy, with all of the anti-vaccine people out there, don’t you think that maybe there would be a push among them to fund a study that investigates the possibility of a link that would be completely separate from everybody that they fantasize might be involved in this conspiracy?

      Of course, like all other people who believe in conspiracy theories, none of these questions make a difference, because it’s a religion– a matter of faith– rather than a rational weighing of evidence. If someone were to consistently show evidence from properly conducted studies that showed horrible side effects from vaccine’s, I wouldn’t need to be screaming at the top of my lungs to get the word out about the dangers of them, because doctors would stop administering them. It doesn’t make the slightest difference how much empirical evidence is put in front of an evangelist, however, because their faith is stronger than real evidence and logic, and they’ll “know” it’s just part of the cover up, being presented by part of the conspiracy, or by the duped sheeple… just like every single other conspiracy theory out there. Think I’m wrong? Try asking the followers of the Texas nutritionist that also has all sorts of “evidence” that autism is caused by MSG in the diet.

      • Laura_connors

        Just curious bouncer…this sea of studies that shows vaccines are safe, can you specifically list them, and then please take note of who funded them.

        Regarding the push to have a study done to show the possibility of a link, who is going to fund this? All the bankrupt families who are doing all they can to rescue their kids? I believe the CDC says its unethical to do this study as not vaccinating kids would be so inhumane. Injecting the sh@t out of African kids and watching them suffer the effects of poorly made vaccines, is perfectly acceptable though, right? Giving them a few hundred dollars afterward makes it all better, I guess.

        Finally, just for one second can you actually stop and give some thought to the question “what would happen if we were right?”. What if all these moms who blindly trusted their docs, docs who don’t even read package inserts, don’t even know what is in the vaccines…what if we are right? Armed with “lack of scientific evidence” but instead with the disgusting images of our children who got six vaccines in one day and eventually began vomiting and having seizures and stopped talking. They stopped looking at us and then they just magically got autism from something else?
        If you get hit by a bus and you die from head wounds, I’m pretty sure it is the bus that killed you. No scientific evidence needed. I’m so tired of these moms getting ridiculed for what they saw with their own eyes. Not every person can tolerate penicillin…why is it so crazy to think that not every child can tolerate a cocktail of six shots in one day?

        And so, my question…what if we are right….who has so much to lose here? The government and big pharma who pretty much owns the government maybe. We have already lost what is most precious to us in some cases….all they have to lose is money and a lot of it! No surprise the backlash against us is so strong.

        • elnura

          There are no independent placebo based double blind study on the  efficacy and safe of vaccines. 
          Vaccine apologist like to throw out the Vaccines work or studies have
          shown even though they can’t give you a link to a single one that isn’t
          by someone who is financially linked to the vaccine industry, the CDC, WHO or big pharm.  Like Dr. Julie Gerberding, who headed the CDC from 2002 through 2009, landed a
          top job with Merck, one of the largest drug companies in the world. Her
          job there? She’s the new president of the vaccine division.  Julie Gerberding is the one who created the bloated vaccine schedule that now is 36-40 shots up from 8 in 1980 and never more than 2 per visit.  Gerberding was very instrumental in increasing the schedule and she was handsomely rewarded.

          CDC will not do a study between un-vaccinated and vaccinated children even though they are asked regulary.   Cochrane Collaboration MMR study states it’s a crappy study because vaccine makers
          released very little data to work with but it’s the best crappy study done to date. 

    • mplo

      Oh, come on!  Contracting and dealing with a bad case of measles is NOT exactly a walk in the park.  Neither is  dealing with an autistic kid, but there’s absolutely NO link between the vaccines and autism!   Since it’s been proven that people with autism were hardwired together like that while in the womb, during fetal development, long before they even come into this world, the chances are far better than not that a child who supposedly develops autism after being vaccinated was hardwired together like that well before s/he even came out of the womb and into this world.

      Dr. Wakefield, who, like Jenny McCarthy, helped pioneer that so-called link between vaccines and autism, lost his license to practice medicine, and well he should’ve, especially because that whole this was proven to be a bunch of hocus-pocus and tossed out by the wayside long ago!

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004319923237 Addryanne Adamsyn

    If you make a decision that adversely affects others then yes, you should be liable for it.  If you drive drunk and kill someone you are responsible, if you fail to vaccinate and then allow your child to be patient 0 when others die then yes, you should be responsible.

  • Reillycct

    Vaccines has ZERO liability for their product – whether it works, doesn’t work or harms you. Zero. And vaccines are a legally classified as “unavoidably unsafe” – that is why the gov’t has released them from liability. But yet, we are mandated to use them. The Vaccine Injury Compensation Program has paid over $2billion in award since the late 1980s. This is not a program that is a cake walk – lots of fighting to get, comparatively, very little money. Yet, table injuries (meaning, generally accepted injuries that are easier to get awards for) include brain damage. 

    When the vaccine companies are held liable again, I may be more open to being held accountable for what happens when I DON’T utilize their products.
    BTW, may I hold you accountable if your freshly immunized family member sheds live virus all over my family, making them sick. There is a generally accepted 21 day transmission period for live virus vaccines. 

  • 12345

    If the shots worked, and your kid is vaccinated.  AND YOU BELIEVE that they work.  Then who cares if the sick kid coughs all over your kid.  They work right?  Your kids is protected form the koodies.  Its lawyers trying to find a new way to make a buck.  How about if your kid gives a kid a cold?  A cough?  Scrapes his knee playing football?  Where does it stop.  really?

    • Heraldblog

      Your comment tells us you don’t the first thing about vaccines and how they work.

    • mplo

      Common colds and scrapes aren’t nearly as disabling or likely to kill as polio, pertussis, tetanus, diptheria or measles/mumps, although one can get a systemic Staph infection from not cleaning off and bandaging a scrape.

  • km

    Paul Offit and Art Kaplan — These folks are just mercenaries. They have no ethics.

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      Anti-vaccine people obviously are taking money from Big Pharma to kill our children. Every measles case taken to hospital costs the family, insurance company or government around $142,000. End measles vaccinations, and there will eventually be around 300,000 American (let alone other countries) children in hospital. Hundreds of them will die, and based on the low quality and low funding of US hospitals, the death rate might be quite a bit higher.

      Big Pharma would love to get a piece of that $142,000. They make about $5 for each MMR shot. They’d make $28-30 thousand for each child in hospital for the measles. 

      So, km, can you tell me what Big Pharma is paying you to make sure our children get sick and die? That’s so immoral that you’re doing the bidding for Big Pharma. So horrible.

      • Richard

        wow.. what an absolutely deranged statement… Anti vax people are taking money from Big Pharma???. well, i can easily suspect a group connected with Big Pharma is paying you for posting so much drivel on this comment page. A very curious thing a person with an iota of critical thinking can notice on this comment lists when vaccine safety is raised, are the pro-vaccine people who post the most almost inevitably follow the same, logic, the same derogatory and rude language, constant references to lack of education, etc.  Is there a factory somewhere that i dont know about where you people are cloned, programmed and released on the planet to do the bidding of your masters for some chump change?

        • Heraldblog

           There are entire books filled with things you don’t know about, Richard.

      • km

        You said “Anti-vaccine people obviously are taking money from Big Pharma to kill our children”

        Pure rubbish!

    • Heraldblog

       Unlike anonymous internet posters who spew unsubstantiated defamatory comments about respected health professionals.

  • Jacquehuth

    Unvaccinated children are a risk to the community. Their parents fears are unwarranted. They need to make sure that vaccinations are not given all at once as some docs want to do. The grouping of injections into a small body raises the risk of high fever which can cause brain damage just as a serious case of measles or meningitis can. It has been proven there is no relationship to autism. 

    • Pplatplay

       Please cite source for your unsubstantiated statement that “Unvaccinated children are a risk to the community”  Any papers proving the “herd immunity” theory.

  • Katie Wright

    why aren’t vaccine companies liable when their vaccines don’t work? Oh, that’s right, they have indemnity!

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      The funny thing is that the reason they’re protected is that people like you exist. It is known that there are infrequent and minor adverse events to vaccines. But you lawsuit happy people would sue these manufacturers, they would pull their vaccines off the market, and our children would be dead. Or injured. Or paralyzed.

      But guess what? By your logic, Big Pharma would get rich…from all the sick children. Every hospitalization for measles costs over $142,000. Big Pharma gets about 20% of that in drugs, supplies, equipment, etc. If every child was not immunized for measles, within a few years, there will be around 300,000 children hospitalized every year for measles. And a few hundred will die.

      So, I guess you want Big Pharma to get rich. And you don’t care about children. Please provide a list of all payments you’re receiving from Big Pharma to push this. How immoral it is of you to take money from Big Pharma to kill children. You should be ashamed. Just ashamed.

  • Richard Gale

    I seem to recall something called the Nuremberg trials that
    outlawed medical experimentation on humans without consent. Vaccines continue
    to be experimental. If this were not so, drug makers would not be investing multi-millions
    into “improving” or discovering “better” and more effective and safer vaccines.
    There would not be new start up companies seeking novel vaccine technologies to
    improve upon the failures of current conventional vaccine technology The doors
    for effective and safe vaccines remains wide open. Caplan would have familiar
    company in fascist Germany. 

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      I call Godwin!

      First of all, it’s called the Nuremberg Code. It prevents experimentation on humans without their consent.

      Now here comes your fallacious commentary. Drug makers do not experiment on human beings without consent. Clinical trials are all done with consent of the everyone involved: the patients, the physicians, and the medical institutions. 

      Based on your reasoning, we would have NO medical procedures EVER. Because every single medical procedure has a known, quantifiable, and observable risk. ALL of them. Your Nirvana Fallacy, that is, if it’s not perfect, it’s crap, has no meaning in real science. The clinical trials are used to show the safety, benefit and how much the benefit surpasses any risk.

      There are cancer treatments that have a multitude of risks, but they only increase the average lifespan by a couple of months. That may seem like nothing, but to the person dying of the disease, it is a lifetime.

      You are an ignorant, foolish man who has no understanding of medical research. No wonder you believe in what you believe.

      • Richard

        Well… if you have any actual background  working in biotech and genetics. then i might consider you as a worthy opponent of debate; albeit it is well over a decade now when was in the industry. But  you are just spewing jargon here… I thought this entire discussion was to reflect upon compulsory vaccination and criminal liability to parents refusing to vaccinate their children. This is a human rights issue of consent.  So, take your ritalin and refocus your thinking… we are dealing with bioethical issues.. not just your semantic games… if you want to play word games, go to Toys R Us and buy yourself a new game of scrabble. 

  • GoldenGir1

    Some of these people need to travel back in time, get small pox, and die out so the human gene pool can benefit from riddance of their stupidity and ignorance
    Where is natural selection when you need it ?

  • Richard Gale

    the host was disingenuously incorrect in speaking about the the measles outbreak in the Jewish Brooklyn community as being among unvaccinated. The New York Orthodox Jewish is very keen on vaccination.  In recent years there have been large mumps outbreaks in the Jewish communities of NY and NJ and the majority were vaccinated with MMR. The New England Journal Medicine http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1202865

    • http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php Michael Simpson

      The point of the NEJM article was that close contact with someone who caught measles could overwhelm the protection proffered by the vaccine.

      http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/repeated-contact-mumps-overwhelm-immunization/

      • Richard

        i know these arguments.. you are not telling me anything i have not come cross before, since you have no idea who I am or what I do. But these studies still are assumptions with absolutely no scientific evidence whatsoever to confirm with “evidence based science” that these outbreaks were due to unvaccinated kids.  Absolutely none.  Anyway you look at it statistically, the mumps vaccine was a dismal failure in these cases with that high of percentage being infected. so, lets lay to rest these star-gazing figures of 90% or whatever vaccine immune efficacy. that is bullshit and you know it. 

  • http://www.facebook.com/sarah.white.3532 Sarah White

    Lets see a parent cannot sue a maufacturer if their child suffers a permanent injury from vaccine but  parent can sue another parent if their child gets a contagious disease the vaccine did not protect them from to begin with (meaning the vaccine failed to protect). Pit parent against parent…absolve the manufacturer against liability. what a charade

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    In Finland, a study was done on genetically engineered flu vaccine (Flumist, the genetically engineered live-virus “up-the-nose” / “spray shot”). It was a small study, but was all the FDA required.

    The primary objective was to assess whether this GMO virus could be transmitted from vaccinated children to their unvaccinated placebo contacts in a day care setting.

    The results: Recipients of were shown to shed onto 7% of the unvaccinated “placebo” children (who then shed GMO vaccine virus) and 80% of the vaccine recipients shed for at least 21 days. 

    http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM295380.pdf

    • Heraldblog

       It’s a good thing that attenuated viruses don’t cause disease!

      • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

        Attenuated viruses can and do cause disease. Look up cases of “attenuated measles” and “oka strain chicken pox” for examples. As for flu vaccine, previous vaccination may actually hamper long term immunity to changing strains – which is why unwanted shedding is an important issue. http://afludiary.blogspot.com/2013/04/eurosurveillance-h7n9-virus-host.html

  • AussieMum

    If the vaccinated can sue the unvaccinated for “so-called”  spreading diseases, then I should be able to “name-and-shame” by doctor for vaccinating and damaging my baby.

  • 924217624

    If I am able to sue you for you or your vaccinated child getting us sick. :)

  • Heraldblog

    Well said.

  • http://www.facebook.com/sarah.white.3532 Sarah White

    why aren’t manufacturers held accoutable if their vaccine causes injury or if the vaccine fails to protect? Why aren’t they held liable?

  • Heraldblog

    Vaccine makers are still liable in civil court. But plaintiffs first must file with NVICP.

    • http://www.facebook.com/sarah.white.3532 Sarah White

      the vaccine injury compensaton program is paid for by the TAXPAYERS not the manufacturers. A tax on each vaccine goes into the VICP fund. Manufacturers are out of it. They probably wrote the original legislation.

      • Heraldblog

         Manufacturers can still be sued in civil court.

    • Richard

      no true.. do you your homework

  • Heraldblog

    Also Japan has had yearly measles outbreaks since 2000. You forgot that part.

  • Heraldblog

    Vaccine injury cases are heard in the US Court of Claims, so actually, Anne, petitioners do “get their day in court.” The rest of your comment is also dishonest.

    • http://www.facebook.com/sarah.white.3532 Sarah White

      many of those vaccine injury claims fail and those who succeed describe the compenstion process as acrimonious. Special Masters not judges preside over so called vaccine court. name another industry that has its own separate judicial process set up for victims from which they (the manufacturer) are excluded by from that process statute.

      • Heraldblog

         I’m shocked that an adversarial court proceeding would be interpreted as acrimonious by some plaintiffs. Shocked, I tell you!

  • Heraldblog

    I love self parody.

  • Heraldblog

    Manufacturers can still be sued, so the entire premise of your comment is wrong.

    • Richard

      of course they can be sued..that have sued numerous times for fraud, corruption, off-label marketing, coverups on known fatal risks of drugs pushed for licensure.   Of course  they can be sued, they operate only as a legal crime syndicate

  • Heraldblog

    Attenuated vaccine-strain viruses do not pose a danger to your family. On the other hand, your ignorance does.

  • Heraldblog

    Katie Wright’s parents have strong ties to a major television network, which sells many millions of dollars worth of drug company ads every year. Follow the money.

  • Heraldblog

    Germs don’t “jump.”

  • Heraldblog

    There is no proof that the HPV vaccine has killed anyone.

  • Heraldblog

    Vaccination is not compulsory. The article you’re commenting on is about civil liability, not criminal. And the Nuremberg trials are not the same as the Nuremberg code.

    Epic fail times three Richard. LOL!

  • Heraldblog

    If you go to Pub med and enter Poul Thorsen, you will find only three studies that have anything to do with vaccines and autism. And he was not lead investigator on any of those studies.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

      Congressman Posey from Florida asked the CDC spokes person Colleen Boyle how many studies did you say he was involved in?  She said 2 Congressman, he said no! try 22.         I wish, the good Congressman would have asked.   Why did the CDC pay a researcher for 18 studies.   Since his indictment? on 13 counts of wire fraud and 9 
      counts of money laundering here in the US.            Miss Boyle, why would someone who stole from the CDC.   Buy a home, next to the CDC ?   

      Last, why if the CDC knew a yr. in advance that the researcher was being sought out
      in Denmark for suspected theft of almost 2 million dollars.       Did the CDC contract with him,to be the head of the DSM 5?

      Paying a man for 18 studies since his indictment, smacks of bribes to keep his mouth shut.

      • Heraldblog

         Sorry, Joe. Listen to the video. Posey was clearly suggesting that Thorsen had authored over 20 studies on vaccines and autism. Boyle answered the best she could, considering that Posey isn’t all that interested in facts.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

          Colleen Boyle is corrupt, going back to the Simpson Wood meeting. She suggested, that by adding more children to the cohorts that were to young. The (Association) the problem [Vaccines causing Autism] would go away.  

          Basically, she suggested watering down their findings.  

          Colleen Boyle, committed perjury by lying to Congressman Posey.
          He said to Boyle,lets talk about that scumbag Poul .  Meaning Poul
          Thorsen, she answers by saying he was only involved in 2 studies. And, he had very limited involvement in those studies.  About an hour later,Congressman Posey asked.  How many studies did you say?  She answered 2 Congressman, he said No! try 22. 

          I wish, the good Congressman would have asked.   Why did the CDC pay a researcher for 18 studies.   Since his indictment? on 13 counts of wire fraud and 9 counts of money laundering here in the US.            

          Also Miss Boyle, why would someone who stole from the CDC.   Buy a home, next to the CDC ?   

          Last, why if the CDC knew a yr. in advance that the researcher was being sought out in Denmark for suspected theft of almost 2 million dollars.    Did the CDC, contract with him to be the head of the DSM 5?  
          Paying a man for 18 studies since his indictment, smacks of bribes to keep his mouth shut and him out of the country.
          Heraldblog answer this, the indictment exist. In fact, I checked and they have issued a warrant for Pouls arrest.  That was issued over a year ago,why has the US marshal’s not picked him up?  
          Common sense, says you do not pay a researcher for any studies after he steals almost 2 million dollars from you.            After he’s  indicted, they paid him for 18 more?????? If it’s not a bribe to keep him out of the US,  please explain why they would pay him a dime.
          Especially, 18 after his indictment?????? Give me a logical reason.
          When contacting Poul the CDC told him “we are only interested in what will exonerate the CDC and vaccines”.  They then hand this man, that you say had no real input a whopping  11 million plus dollar CDC contract.
          Weeks before the IOM, is to evaluate the science on vaccines as a cause for Autism.  The CDC is in a foia email saying ;
          “we have searched frantically, and cannot find anything here” “we are going to have to go elsewhere, and get us a study”  
          What is wrong with this picture? When they made this email reflecting they are frantically looking for proof an IQ lowering neural-toxic compound. That was injected, into the American children.         At, 160 times what the EPA considers the standard for Liquid Hazardous Waste for Mercury was not harmful. 
          They were telling the public that Thimerosal Mercury was safe and they have the studies proving it. Why would anybody, have to search frantically for what they informed the public they already had????

          He did, what they paid him to do.  He gave them proof putting Mercury in children. Was not just safe.     A little Mercury, was actually good for the children.    Please, explain that one away.

          • Heraldblog

             I know facts don’t matter to you, Joe, so I will write the following for the WBUR staff who I’m sure are as amused by anti-vaccine nutbaggery as the rest of us. You wrote:

            “Paying a man for 18 studies since his indictment, smacks of bribes to keep his mouth shut and him out of the country.”

            The indictment was handed down in April, 2011, so 19 months passed before Posey’s little tantrum at Issa’s anti-vaccine hearing last November. So you are claiming that Thorsen completed 18 studies in 19 months, all of which were funded by the CDC. Fortunately, your claim is falsifiable. So let’s test it.

            When we type Thorsen’s name into the search function at pubmed, we find 90 papers where he is listed as an author. Limit the publication dates to the 19 months following his indictment, and only 12 studies turn up. The latest was published in January, 2013.  However, none of them are on the list of scientific articles associated with the CDC’s National Center on Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities (CDC-Denmark). Here is the link for that list:

            http://tinyurl.com/Jozelize

             That list includes 21 papers with Th0rsen listed as an author. He is not listed as lead investigator on any of the studies. The latest was published ten months before the indictment.

            So your claim is unsupported by facts. There is no evidence that the CDC paid hush money to keep Thorsen out of the US.

            Do you have any evidence to back up your claim?

  • Heraldblog

    So now vaccines bypass the immune system? Who knew?

  • Heraldblog

    Maybe you should report Michael to the Nuremberg trials. LOL!

  • Laura_connors

    Lynne, Please feel free to note which of the toxins I noted are NOT in vaccines. I guarantee I can show you the package insert showing these toxins.

    Please also feel free to share the names of these studies showing vaccines are safe. I am pretty sure the best way to show this would be to compare health outcomes of vaccinated vs unvaccinated , using the cdc’s current schedule. Never been done.

  • Dee Stonewall

     Yes, there could be a legal case made for parents who have not had their children vaccinated and whose children infect others. 

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    Genetically engineered flu vaccine (Flumist-the live-virus “up-the-nose” / “spray shot”) was assessed as to whether it would shed from vaccinated children onto unvaccinated children;  80% of the vaccine recipients shed for at least 21 days and 7% of the unvaccinated “placebo” children also began to shed GMO virus.http://www.fda.gov/downloads/BiologicsBloodVaccines/Vaccines/ApprovedProducts/UCM295380.pdf

  • marketing continues

    Just curious…How will the parents be sued when, for example, our own government, in order to spread (for example the very difficult to spread H1N1 virus of 2009) or ever the regular flu virus, by insisting on giving nasal flu vaccines which are KNOWN to spread the virus (pathetic marketing strategy really).  In these cases, the vaccinated kid is the one spreading the virus and that was the intent.  Who gets sued then? 

  • http://www.facebook.com/sarah.white.3532 Sarah White

    Regarding te safety of the CDC immunization schedule, in a press release issued on Jan 16, 2013, the IOM said: “However, the elements of the schedule — the number, frequency, timing, order, and age at which vaccines are given — are not well-defined in existing research and should be improved.”

    so IOM admits the science on the safety of the CDC immunization schedule is not complete and should be improved. 
     

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

    Should Parents Be Liable If Unvaccinated Children Sicken Others?

    Why? your Toxic crap sickened our children.  And, we can’t seem to hold you liable.

    Besides, it appears by the California data.  And the recent from all over the world that points to.       Hello! the vaccines are not working! Especially when the Vaccinated are contracting the disease at rates of 87 % fully vaccinated 11 % partially vaccinated and 
    only 8 % of non vaccinated in California.       So the more vaccinated the children were, 
    the more likely they were to get the whooping cough.  

    Sat, May 25th, 2013By Christof Lehmann (nsnbc) Sat, May 25th, 2013 Islamabad city hospital continues receiving children suffering from measles. Authorities inform that all necessary precautions have been taken. More than 50 % of the children brought to the hospital are children who previously have been vaccinated. The Pakistani figures corroborate recently released British documentation.

    It appears, your crap you call vaccines.  Are worse than useless.  And by your articles caption,the vaccinated could be held liable for the evidence is overwhelming they are causing their own epidemics.  

         

    • Heraldblog

       You are both grammatically challenged and mathematically illiterate. I guess that is why.  You feel at home. In the anti-vaccine movement.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

        Don’t shoot me, i’m only the messenger. Attack what I said, you can’t, because it’s true.

        • mplo

          You’ve clearly succumbed to the propaganda of the anti-vaccine movement, so that makes you more than just a messenger.

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

      Don’t me i’m only the messenger , attack what I said.  You can’t, because it’s true. 

  • CB

    “First, it provides a measure of justice for a family that is affected
    by an unvaccinated person’s choice. Second, the possibility of a
    lawsuit would encourage individuals to get vaccinated.”
    No.  The possibility of a lawsuit that would financially destroy most individuals would effectively force those same individuals to get vaccinated.   Caplan must be aware of what “encouragement” here really implies; this is disingenuous at best, hypocrisy at worst.  Or just stirring the pot a bit. 

    So why not sweeten the pot?  How about suing all those folks who don’t donate blood, sign organ donor cards, or anyone who runs over a child (who runs in front of their car – no way they could react in time, but they could have otherwise dragged their selfish lazy butts out to the sidewalk and walked to the corner store in the first place, ya know?). 

    Freedom is by its very nature somewhat irresponsible.  Where do you draw the line? 
    For me it stops short of forced invasive medical procedures, regardless of whether the “force” is applied via the threat of legal action, or otherwise.  

  • Liz

    There’s a measles outbreak in New York?  Let’s just hope that well nourished children, for whom the disease presents little threat, will catch the measles and obtain life long immunity.  Pregnant women who have had wild measles as children pass immune protection against measles to their newborn infants that lasts until the infants are strong enough to fight the disease on their own.  This is not the case with vaccinated girls.  It is not known when the vaccine wears off or immunity wanes (hence the call for boosters), and vaccinated girls do not pass immunity on to their infants, leaving them unprotected when they are most vulnerable. In the 1950s and 60s, parents were not afraid of the measles. Don’t believe the disease mongering.  1 in 1000 did not die.  Complications were rare.  Having sufficient vitamin A plays an important role in recovering from the measles.  Interesting that they show a registered nurse, a health professional who clearly has the education and insight to make an informed decision, as an example of someone forgoing vaccines.  For an excellent factual discussion of measles, see Dr. Jayne Donegan’s paper at her website.

    • Heraldblog

       Just about everything you wrote is false, Liz. Well nourished children can still suffer serious injury from the wild measles virus. Some even die. Maternal antibodies against measles only work if the infant is breastfeeding, and only up to 12 months of age when immunity starts to wane. Measles killed on average about 500 people every year in the US in the 1950s and 60s. The mortality rate was about 1 per 1,000 cases. The risk of encephalitis, pneumonia, and blindness were even higher. In the recent outbreak in France, the mortality rate was about 1:2,000. Complications may be rare, however you define that term, but serious complications from the vaccine are far more rare – on the order of 1:200,000. There is no good evidence that vitamin A, administered in pills or shots, is an effective treatment for measles. If Dr. Jayne Donegan believes the things you just wrote, then she is in serious need of continuing medical education.

      • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

        Serious complications after MMR were well studied in Finland (over 14 yrs) and found to be  5.3 per 100,000 vaccine recipients.
        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11144371

      • Heraldblog

         Did you read the conclusion to the Finnish paper you cited?

        CONCLUSIONS:
        Causality between immunization and a subsequent
        untoward event cannot be estimated solely on the basis of a temporal
        relation. Comprehensive analysis of the reported adverse reactions
        established that serious events causally related to MMR vaccine are rare
        and greatly outweighed by the risks of natural MMR diseases.

        Translation: there is no conclusive evidence that the reported adverse events were in fact “serious complications” from the vaccine.

  • Skeptical

    I have watched and read this debate with great interst and I have a question for all of you: where are these diseases showing themselves in the United States, specifically (states, towns, cities, etc.), which would allegedly be prevented by mass vaccination?  I see autistic people all over – the school systems are being overwhelmed in Massachusetts and elsewhere with these folks?  I have spoken with numerous friends, acqaintances, customers, etc. talking about their autistic children.  It seems like an epidemic.  There was recently a state legislatice hearing on expanding the state department od disability services to autistic folks and 80 people sowed up to testify – a lot here!

    Where are the actual cases of diptheria, polio, measles, rubella, etc.  Where can I loomk at those reports.  I see the autism.  Where are these diseases in the US? 

    • Heraldblog

       1. Diphtheria, polio, measles, and rubella killed and maimed thousands before their vaccines were widely used in the US. A rubella epidemic in 1965-66 resulted in thousands of cases of congenital rubella syndrome, which caused severe brain damage and other serious birth defects. Measles regularly killed about 500 each year in the US. In the last ten years, it killed millions, mostly children, in poor countries in Africa and Asia. Diphtheria killed thousands each year in the US alone before the vaccine came along. So the short answer to your question is: we don’t see those diseases in great numbers because we have vaccines for them, and they are being used.

      2.  We have seen a dramatic rise in autism diagnoses over the last 30 years, but that is not the same as saying there has been a dramatic rise in the actual number of persons with autism. The word “epidemic” refers to a rise in incidence, not prevalence. Understanding the difference between the two terms would go a long way towards answering your questions.

      Thanks for your honest interest.

      • Skeptical

        I realize the history of these diseases and how vicious they can be.  If you drill through even the CDC info though the serious AAP diseases seem very uncommon in the US.  And, in many, many of the outbreaks the people who contract them are already vaccinated.  Do you know when and where in the US they occur now – and how I can see that for myself?  Is there relaible reporting somewhere by town or county or state.  The CDC does not seem to report this.  What parents of young children have to choose between is getting vaccinated against diseases that are unheard of and autism they are hearing of and seeing every day; febrile seizures all of the time; delayed speech, etc.  Something is going on.  Any clear, relevant and contemporaneous info you can provide would be deeply appreciated. 

        • Whitney

          The MMWR Weekly Report includes a running total of reportable diseases – not all reportable diseases are vaccine preventable, but most of the vaccine-preventable diseases are reportable.
          http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/mmwr_wk/wk_cvol.html
          Just keep in mind that these data are delayed by a couple of weeks, so if you know of an outbreak in your state and it is not on the MMWR, it will be eventually.

          • Skeptical

            I went to that site but only a small fraction of the AAP diseases (those that are recommneded to be vaccined) are tracked.  Is there somewhere else all of these diseases are tracked?  Parents are being asked to have their children vaccinated.  There is a mountain of fear and skepticism about the vaccines – right ot wrong.  Why not do the vax v. unvax study and then there would be more trust.  In the meantime, where are these diseases showing themsleves?  Which states and town?  And the people who contract them, who are they?  Are they elderly, children, do they have multiple medical problems already?  Just trying to get a handle on this.  I know many people who have autistic children - far too many.  I find it very very strange.  I know school teachers in the special ed collaboratives – they are being overwhelmed with autistic students.  I have never met anyone under 80 who has been harmed by the diseases the AAP recommends be addressed by vaccines.  Any thoughts would be appreciated. 

          • Whitney

            Actually if you scroll down through the Reportable Diseases list (last weeks is here: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6221md.htm?s_cid=mm6221md_w) you will find all of the diseases that we routinely vaccinate children for, with the exception of rotavirus. The MMWR breaks reporting down by state – each state health department is required to receive reports of reportable diseases and send them to the CDC. Each state does its own reporting a little differently though, so in some areas the smallest reporting block you will have is a county – that makes it hard to pinpoint diseases to individual towns. 

            Vaccination versus unvaccination studies have been done for decades, the only problem is that they typically appear in scientific journals that the general public either doesn’t have access to or does not possess the scientific jargon to understand. That is why groups like ACIP are formed, to collate all the studies that are done and to provide a standard set of recommendations to doctors and the public. 

            Vaccination, along with other advances in medicine, have drastically reduced the number of people affected by these preventable diseases every year, but people still do get them, I can assure you of that. And some of these diseases can be devastating, which is why it’s so important that we do our best to prevent them in the first place.

          • Richard

            boyle at the CDC said they never looked at any vaccinated vs unvaccinated studies. 
            http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensalzberg/2012/12/03/congress-holds-an-anti-vaccination-hearing/
            But of course, Offit and all the others in the so-called evidence based science cult dont what theses studies done.. Surely they know it would be an unrepairable crack in their cherished paradigm
            http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/the-perils-and-pitfalls-of-doing-a-vaccinated-versus-unvaccinated-study/   (warning, there is a lot pro-vaccine venom and hatred as to be expected writings on these blogs)

          • Heraldblog

             It would be unethical to withhold vaccines from children for the first three years of their lives in order to confirm what medical science learned years ago – that vaccines don’t cause autism.

          • mplo

            Nope!  On the contrary, ANTI-vaccine hatred and venom is more like it!

          • Skeptical

            And then obviously the age, health etc is also not included?  I am going to run this down.  Thank you.  I may write back again.  My overall thought though is that Autism is far more prevalent in the US and far more visible than these diseases.  That could obviously change but right now I think that’s how parents are thinking and nothing is going to change that unless they see a study they trust and or a pandemic giving rise to an accute situation and people will assume the risks associated with haveing their children vaccinated.  It seems like people just dont trust what they are hearing from big pharma and who can blame them?

          • Skeptical

            Just checked the MMWR and there was no diptheria, polio, measles or rubella reported.  Do they track these?

          • Skeptical

            Just checked the MMWR and there was no diptheria, polio, measles or rubella reported. Do they track these?

          • Whitney

            Yes – I do not think there have been confirmed cases of diphtheria or polio for the last few years in the US. There have definitely been measles cases, especially in New York – those might take a few weeks to be processed by the CDC and put in the weekly report.

          • Skeptical

            Thank you I will look for updates.  It would be very helpful if these reports were made available by county and age group.  That would would really go a long long way to helping parents digest all of this information.  Thank you very much for these responses.  It has been very helpful.

          • mplo

            No, Skeptical.  I think that it’s the anti-vaccine people who are whipping fear against vaccines.    Why do you and so many other people persist on buying the notion that the vaccines cause Autism when studies have proven otherwise?  

            At least kids don’t die from autism, unlike whooping cough, polio and other childhood diseases.

        • Heraldblog

          I’m not sure what you mean by “unheard of.”  Have you ever heard of cryptococcus gattii? The fungal spore first appeared in the Pacific Northwest in 2007, and causes meningitis. One strain kills 10% of those infected.  It’s possible that cryptococcus gattii was unheard of by some of the people who succumbed to it.

          Lack of “clear, relevant and contemporaneous info” is not the only reason parents willingly expose their children to preventable diseases. There’s also the abundance of misleading and false information put forth by anti-vaccine activists and websites.  Some of the comments on the WBUR story are examples of “how a lie can travel half way around the world before the truth can put its boots on,” as Mark Twain once said.

          Yes, vaccine preventable diseases are uncommon in the US. That’s because they are vaccine preventable. On the other hand, there is zero reliable evidence that vaccines cause developmental delays, including autism.

          • Skeptical

            But is that one of the vaccines recommended by AAP?        

          • Heraldblog

             There is no vaccine for cryptococcus gattii, if that’s what you are asking.

        • mplo

          At least people don’t die from autism, and, at least with autism, with early intervention, it’s often possible to help a kid learn speech, various social skills, and to help him/her to lead a normal, productive life like most people.  

          Measles, Rubella, pertussis, diphtheria, tetanus, polio and mumps, for example, have caused numerous birth defects, severe and permanent disability, and death.

      • mplo

        Your first paragraph about the statistics indicating the necessity for vaccines against Diphtheria, Rubella, Measles and polio are correct, Heraldblog, but as far as the rise in autism goes, I think that it’s not so much that autism is on the increase as the fact that more and more people have become aware of autism, and therefore, more kids, teens and adults alike, are being diagnosed with it.

  • LizP

    The problem with this logic is that the VACCINATED contract the diseases they are vaccinated-against; for instance, the MEASLES:
    This, in April, from Islamabad, “more than 50 per cent of the children brought to the hospital were those who had already been vaccinated against measles.”http://tribune.com.pk/story/541062/measles-outbreak-city-hospitals-continue-to-receive-new-cases/…So what are you going to do? Sue the vaccinated kid who gave your kid the Measles?!Get educated, with information FROM YOUR GOVERNMENT, before you spout such nonsense!!!Simpsonwood and what harm thimerosal can cause (even in tiny doses):http://www.putchildrenfirst.org/chapter2.htmlResearch says the vaccine schedule does impact brain development, gut integrity, and behavior (Autism):http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20628439Genetic susceptibility:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15184908Ingredients in your vaccines:http://www.cdc.gov/VACCINES/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/appendices/B/excipient-table-2.pdfAt least 28 vaccines by 2 years of age (don’t miss the fine print)http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/downloads/parent-ver-sch-0-6yrs.pdfReported “adverse events” after vaccination (approximately 1 – 10% of those which have likely occurred: http://www.medalerts.org/Search VAERS Databasewww.medalerts.orgThe search engine examines vaccines, symptoms, doses, dates, places, and more…And here is a study from Harvard proving that the portion of the immune system triggered by vaccination does not, in fact, do anything to prevent the vaccinee from contracting the disease:http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2012/03/beyond-antibodies.htmlI found this, bring it to your doctor and see if s/he is willing to guarantee the safety of the vaccineshttp://preventdisease.com/pdf/Warranty-of-Vaccine-Safety-English.pdfFurther, and to your own point, would be the fact that even if my vaccinated kid (yes my kids DID get their shots) contracted chicken pox (which all my kids did) and was playing with your kid (vaccinated or not) and your kid contracted chicken pox this is simply coincidental; you could not prove my kid gave your kid a disease. The same goes for measles and any other disease. Bottom line, you can not prove unvaccinated children pose a risk to vaccinated or other unvaccinated children.Every disease we vaccinate against is contageous for a number of days prior to symptoms becoming evident. Therefore, where the disease we contract is contracted is a giant unknown. Pinning the blame to the backs of children who are not vaccinated is ridiculous.ALL people, vaccinated or not, can be vectors – ANYBODY can carry disease, even those who have been vaccinated. Especially because many of these diseases may pass with only mild symptoms, people shed the virus’ EVERYWHERE. Living proximate to others puts each of us in contact with these diseases regularly.It’s a dirty world, so wash your hands and keep them out of your eyes, nose, and mouth. Don’t share needles. Don’t swap bodily fluids with strangers.If after reading all this information, you still believe in the vaccine miracle and you are comfortable with the attendant risks, vaccinate your child – at least if your child suffers an adverse event, you will have knowingly accepted this risk – if your child contracts the disease anyway (as did my vaccinated children), you will learn vaccination does not prevent catching the disease, nor does it lessen the course of the disease (my vaccinated child had the longest case of the chickenpox, and measles)! If your infant suddenly dies, you knew this might happen. And if your previously “perfect” child suddenly spirals into lifelong disability and/or autoimmunity, you bought and paid for it…Oh, and I almost forgot – if your child does suffer an “adverse event,” you may not sue the doctor, pharmacist, manufacturer, or anybody else for damages – if your child dies and you can PROVE the death was caused by vaccines in “vaccine court,” you will be “compensated” $250,000.00 – you will receive no apology; if your child survives but is lifetime disabled, odds are not in your favor for receiving anything from this “court” to help defray the added burden vaccination imposed on your life nor for the loss to your child of their capable and independent future (since the first Vaccine Injury Compensation claims were made in 1989, 3,101 compensation payments have been made, 9,705 claims have been dismissed)….See this article:http://www.nvic.org/injury-compensation/losangelestimes.aspx and the follow-on article that explains you no longer have the right to sue in Civil court: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504564_162-20034847-504564.html…Vaccine Injury Claims Face Grueling Fight www.nvic.org Victims increasingly view U.S. compensation program as adversarial and tightfisted.Here is more research you might want to look into – it is performed by INDEPENDENT, and RESPECTED organizations: http://www.greatergoodmovie.org/learn-more/research/

    • Heraldblog

       It is not necessary in vaccine court to “prove” the vaccine caused the alleged injury in order to be awarded damages. The burden of proof in civil court is much higher.

      • LizP

        HeraldBlog – you have no idea what you are talking about.  You absolutely MUST present proof.  This is the crux of the issue, because, when you take a vaccine-injured child to the hospital, the record doesn’t state “vaccine injury…”  AND, if you did not immediately go to the hospital, because the dumbed-down, misleading “vaccine information statement” you received told you to expect symptoms which normally would have sent you to the hospital sooner, and waited, say 4 days for the “expected” symptoms to go away, because the docror’s office repeatedly told you the symptoms were “normal” – your case is no longer quickly compensable.  ALSO, you must KNOW this event, which the doctor and hospital told you was unrelated to the vaccines, actually was related to the vaccines and know to FILE within three years of the injury; which means you must be aware of the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, find an attorney willing to work an unspecified period of time without pay (some have worked more than five years without compensation), find an “expert witness” willing to speak against the vaccine program and withstand intimidation from the Government and risk of losing his/her professional position for speaking out, and you must present a “theory of causation” implicating a vaccine (even though you might have received up to 6 shots that day) which the “Special Master” deems believable.  IF you make it through all of that, then you have a shot at being heard in “vaccine court;” which is actually an attorney, known as a “Special Master,” employed by Health and Human Services, his co-worker, an attorney from the Department of Justice, and the best Government “expert witness” you vaccine fees (supposed to be used to compensate those injured by vaccines) can buy, versus, you, your attorney (if you can find one), and whatever “expert witness” you can find who is willing to risk his/her career and speak against the vaccine program;  there is no right to Discovery, you may not subpoena anything from the manufacturer of the vaccines, and the “special master” is an employee of the parent organization over the organizations whose job it is to decide if vaccines (and the schedule of administration) are safe, the organization that commissions the scanty research about vaccines, and the organization which “recommends” the administration of vaccines…NO conflict there…Oh, and, whether or not your case is awarded settlement, your attorney will, eventually, be paid for his efforts (regardless of the quality of his performance on your behalf).  Anyhow, the number of cases, which are filed timely, and allowed to proceed, which are compensated?  14,548 petitions have been filed under the program, 3,256 have been compensated  - so, your odds of receiving ANY compensation for your death or lifetime disability from participating in the vaccine program is less than 1 in 4; and that is IF you first clear all of the above hurdles.  I promise you, Civil court would be a cake-walk; there, I would Subpoena and Discover PLENTY to PROVE my injury, AND I would have the benefit of a JURY, instead of a Government employee of the very program that has every reason to protect their program…Too bad the right to take it to Civil Court (as written into the VICAP legislation)  was virtually eliminated by the Supreme Court…

        • Heraldblog

          Plaintiffs still have the right to take their cases to civil court, even if they lose in vaccine court. That right was not eliminated by the Supreme Court. Read the Bruesewitz decision. I noticed that you didn’t mention “table injuries” in your rant. Care to take another crack at it?

          • LizP

            Heraldblog, There is little need to mention table injuries, because, they are rigged.  Time-limiting the symptoms to the least amount of time for a symptom to arise makes it virtually impossible for a parent of an infant or newborn to report.  You see, a newborn or infant is limited in its ability to communicate – it can sleep longer than expected, appear tired, cry, go limp, or go rigid — all of these symptoms are written-off by careless pediatricians as “normal;” so, when worried parents call with concerns, even just an hour after vaccination, the pediatrician advises Tylenol and assures them “it’s normal.”  By the time the newborn is either dead or so severe as to need hospital care, any hope of claiming a “table” injury is WAY off the table (pun intended).  As discussed, above, this leaves only one option, the hard road, just as the Government and PhRMA prefers…Go read the “table” for yourself, I have already done my homework; eleven years worth.  BTW – the Bruesewitz decision, effectively, bars Civil vaccine litigation, 

            “Holding: The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, which created a no-fault program to provide compensation for vaccine-related injuries, preempts all design-defect claims against vaccine manufacturers by individuals seeking compensation for injury or death. (Kagan, J., recused.)
            Plain English Holding: The National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act, which created a no-fault program to provide compensation for vaccine-related injuries, preempts all design-defect claims against vaccine manufacturers by individuals seeking compensation for injury or death.
            Judgment: Affirmed, 6-2, in an opinion by Justice Antonin Scalia on February 22, 2011. Justice Breyer filed a concurring opinion. Justice Sotomayor filed a dissenting opinion, which was joined by Justice Ginsburg. (Kagan, J., recused.)”

            http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/bruesewitz-v-wyeth/ 

  • http://www.facebook.com/jay.kanta Jay Kanta

    Logical fallacies and zero evidence do not make for a useful argument.  Those that whine about being asked for evidence should learn how to do it.  

    I would say your post is nothing more than projection.

  • http://www.facebook.com/futo.buddy Futo Buddy

    yes

  • Heraldblog

     Richard, do you understand the difference between elemental mercury and thimerosal?

    • Heraldblog

       * crickets *

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

      Heraldblog, do you understand that Thimerosal crosses the BBB easier than does the fish mercury.  After entering the Brain, it turns into inorganic Mercury at 2.5 times that as does the fish Mercury.      Inorganic Mercury, is the number 1 most damaging compound to the Mitochondria.       And MSG,well it is the second most damaging.  

      Both of which are in children’s vaccines.

      Sources 

      Dr.Slikker FDA 1990  “it not only crosses the BBB,but the placental barrier also”

      Dr.Burbacher NIH paid study on baby primates revealed, Thimerosal crosses the BBB easier than does the fish Mercury and also it goes up into the brain at 2.5 times that which does the fish Mercury.

      Manufacturers Materal Safety Data sheet, “says Thimerosal is accumulative in the body,it targets the organs of the body in-particular the brain and the lining around the brain”

      MSDS also says “if you are exposed to Thimerosal, any future exposures to mercury may cause Mercury poisoning”     Not smart, giving a hep-b within 
      hours of the first breath the newborn takes.              That, contains a Mercury 
      that the Manufacturer says.          If exposed to, can make you susceptible to 
      getting Mercury poisoning.               Again, double [not smart] because every vaccine given from the birth dose contained the vaccineal Mercury.     Now
      we cross the line to insanity, by revealing that some children were given 9 vaccines with 7 that contained the Mercury.  Hello, they set the stage for a
      perfect storm for neurological damage we now call Autism.     For almost all 
      the symptoms of Autism are mirrored by the symptoms of Mercury poisoning.      
          
       
      MSDS under re activity data, “do not mix with Aluminum”  Guess what children’s vaccine have as a catalyst, Ignoring the warning, Aluminum.  Causing a synergy effect of the two salts being mixed.  That in turn, causes the Toxicity to climb by
      10 to 100 times it’s original Toxicity.

      MSDS Thimerosal is a mutagenic, meaning it has the express ability to mutate a child’s genes.         That what they are bragging,that these children have mutated genes.    Hm! looks like they are finding the damage the vaccines are causing.  

      Last, Injecting an IQ lowering neural-toxin in children and then expecting them 
      to do well  in school.             Is like kneecapping, a cross country runner and then 
      expecting  him to now go and win the race.  

      Definition of Kneecapping, is hitting someone in the Knee with a 2 by 4 board. 
      Thus, rendering them unable to walk less lone run and win a race.  

      At this point, I am speechless at their lack of intelligence and their inability to
      heed very clear warnings.         That, could have save a Generation of American 
      kids.       And that incompetence, will cost this Nation trillions for life long care.

      And untold suffering, for the children effected and their family’s.

      • Heraldblog

         Joe wrote:  “Again, double [not smart] because every vaccine given from the birth dose contained the vaccineal Mercury.  Now we cross the line to insanity, by revealing that some children were given 9 vaccines with 7 that contained the Mercury.”

        Joe, do you know what year it is? Thimerosal has been absent from the pediatric vaccine schedule since 2002. It is found in some flu shots, which most children don’t receive. I understand that you have credibility within the anti-vaccine movement, but in the real world, not so much.

      • mplo

        That’s a bunch of hocus-pocus, ccdaddy.  I refuse to buy it!

  • Heraldblog

     What’s wrong with formaldehyde, Laura? It’s a natural by-product of single carbon metabolism. You already knew that, right?

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

      After Katrina hit, the agency FEMA buys trailers to house the people in that lost their homes.           The Trailers, started getting the children sick with respiratory problems.  The CDC comes forward, an makes a public statement there is no! safe levels of formaldehyde what so ever.  The agency FEMA, take back all the trailers 
      and starts paying storing fees.          Matching the original cost, of the hundreds of thousands of trailers FEMA.   

      Don’t worry, were from the Government and we are here to help!  Heraldblog No! safe levels means No! safe levels.  Except when injecting it in a newborn, within hours of the first breath of God given life.  That’s safe!   

      • Heraldblog

         So the CH2O that is made by our cells and circulates in the blood of every mammal is not safe? Thanks for clearing that up, Joe.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

          Thimerosal causes the cells to self destruct,  it destroys the  Mitochondria.   It known, as apoptosis.  Self destruction, of 
          the cells.     Thimerosal, is in all vats in the making of vaccines.  It’s used to kill microbes.      They chelate it out, they have no idea how much is still left in the vaccines.  But they are allowed, to claim Mercury reduced and Mercury free.

          • Heraldblog

            There were a couple of studies conducted in cell culture demonstrating that thimerosal triggers apoptosis (programmed cell death), most likely due to oxidative stress to the mitochondria. The experiments used
            thimerosal concentrations of 5 micromolar (a little over 2 milligrams
            per liter or ppm). In a typical 6 to 10 lb newborn, this would require
            injecting 5.6 milligrams of thimerosal to attain a body water
            concentration of 5 micromolar. That is more than 200 times the amount of
            thimerosal in a single thimerosal-containing vaccine.

            Joe, I know you don’t understand a word of this, and even if you did it wouldn’t change your mind. But others reading this deserve to know the facts.

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

            Wrote this a while back. The person said, I need a lesson in science.

            As you read this, you will learn they need a reality check.

            When you read this, I want you to think of the warning given to Merck by Dr Maurice Hilleman the grandfather of Merck’s vaccine program.

            In-fact, he created it. 

            ” on the next vaccine schedule, the children will be getting 87 times what the EPA considers safe. “this is not daily doses as such, this is Bolus doses” that’s given at one point in time, when viewed in that manner, it appears rather large” 

            That was the good Dr. Hillemans words, to Merck President & CEO, Dr.Gordon Douglas. He did not even bother to listen and heed that
            very clear warning. 

            In fact, what he did do. was to suggest,that several more vaccines that contained the Mercury. Be added, to the schedule. 

            Dr. Douglas, that did not have any regard for our children’s health. Was given a position at the NIH in vaccine safety. 

            As the Dad of a very severely vaccine damaged child, that’s now 22 that suffers daily. I’m speechless! 

            The fox, is not in control of the hen house, He now runs it! 

            From the FOIA minutes, of the Simpson Wood meeting.

            Dr. Weil: Page 24: “One, up until this last discussion we have been talking about chronic exposure. I think it’s clear to me anyway that we are talking about a problem that is probably more related to bolus acute exposures, and we also need to know that the migration problems and some of the other developmental problems in the central nervous system go on for quite a period after birth. But from all of the other studies of toxic substances, the earlier you work with the central nervous system, the more likely you are to run into a sensitive period for one of these effects, so that moving from one month or one day of birth to six months of birth changes enormously the potential for toxicity. There are just a host of neurodevelopmental data that would suggest that we’ve got a serious problem. The earlier we go, the more serious the problem. The second point I could make is that in relationship to aluminum, being a nephrologist for a long time, the potential for aluminum and central nervous system toxicity was established by dialysis data. To think there isn’t some possible problem here is unreal.”

            Dr Weil according to you, also needs to get a lesson in science. For he to has the audacity, to mention Aluminum as a central nervous system Toxin that was established by dialysis data.

            Continued

          • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

            Amazing that you admitted to the oxidative stress
            and the Mitochondria.  

            A research at Harvard  revealed that oxidative stress 
            from; environmental toxins and toxicants including Mercury
             
             “Both genetic predisposition and environmental toxins and toxicants…including mercury [2, 3]…have been implicated in the etiology of autism” and “…the impact of these environmental triggers is associated with increases in oxidative stress, and is further exacerbated when combined with genetic susceptibility.”
             

        • Heraldblog

          CH2O is the chemical formula for formaldehyde, not thimerosal. Why do you believe the small amount of CH2O present in some vaccines is harmful? It is a naturally occurring substance that is present in blood in far greater quantities than is found in any five vaccines combined.

    • Richard

      EPA’s toxicological summary and health warnings of  formaldehyde
      http://www.epa.gov/ttnatw01/hlthef/formalde.html

      • Heraldblog

         How is the formaldehyde that is made in our cells different from the formaldehyde that the EPA warns us about?

        Take your time on this one.

        • Richard

          maybe you should attempt that one.. Gee… so you dont believe anything from the EPA either.. What do you believe that is not found in some far reaching science fiction novel?  

        • Heraldblog

          The EPA warnings are for prolonged exposure to airborne formaldehyde, not vaccines.

          Since you don’t know, and since you asked, I’ll tell you:  CH2O is the same, whether it is made in a cell or in a lab.

  • Beth

    Let’s talk about liability.  As soon as Dr. Caplan campaigns for returning vaccines to a free market, demand and supply business, then he has the right to campaign for the ability to sue a parent for not vaccinating.  As soon as he campaigns for giving back parents the right to sue the vaccine manufacturers and the doctors/nurses who administer those vaccines, then he can campaign to sue parents.  As soon as non-vaccinating parents can sue vaccinating parents for spreading illness due to viral shedding, then we can talk about the ability to sue a non-vaccinating parent.  By the way, my child is fully vaccinated but don’t for a minute think that all parents who have vaccinated their children blindly believe all the talking points and misleading comments posted on forums like this.  As a country we better start asking why this is the sickest generation of kids ever.  Why are some many auto-immune and neurological diseases on the rise? How are the public schools going to meet the rising costs for special ed services?  Lastly, how are we going to pay for adequate care for these injured children once their parents have passed away?  I haven’t seen Dr. Caplan, his buddy Dr. Offit, or the AAP putting forth much effort in this area………guess it isn’t their problem………but shouldn’t they be cleaning up their mess?

  • Kim

    Question the premise.  Should the goal be to eliminate all childhood diseases?  And if the means to doing that undermines the immune system why would we do that.  Getting sick and getting better actually build and strengthen the immune system.  Very few die from the measles.  Why are we acting like it is the plague.  And there are loads of things to do to strengthen the immune system so one is stronger so the body fights off the measles and whooping cough.  

    • Heraldblog

       The measles killed about 100,000 people last year.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

        That’s BS, and you know it.

        • Heraldblog

          Don’t worry, Joe – they weren’t Americans.

    • mplo

      “There are loads of things to do to strengthen the immune system so one is stronger, so the body fights off the measles and whooping cough”

      Oh, really?!?  Like what kinds of things?  

      Years ago, a family with the same sort of attitudes that you have and lived several houses down the street from us,  didn’t vaccinate their kids against whooping cough or any other communicable childhood diseases, and the consequences were rather legendary;  One of the kids in that family contracted pertussis (a scientific name for whooping cough.), whooped and vomited for about an hour during class, and wasn’t even sent home by the school administration.  Disgusting.

    • mplo

      People have died from the measles, Kim, not to mention other childhood diseases, due to not having been vaccinated.  I had the measles because the vaccine for them had not yet come out, but because I’d had a shot of gamma globulin prior to coming down with the measles, I had a mild case of it.  

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

    Amazing that you admitted to the oxidative stress and the damage to the Mitochondria.  

    A research at Harvard revealed that oxidative stress from;  

    “Both genetic predisposition and environmental toxins and toxicants…including mercury [2, 3]…have been implicated in the etiology of autism” and “…the impact of these environmental triggers is associated with increases in oxidative stress, and is further exacerbated when combined with genetic susceptibility.”

    The particular brain regions with the increased 3-NT…are associated with the speech processing, sensory and motor coordination, emotional and social behavior, and memory…These preliminary results reveal, for the first time, brain region-specific changes in oxidative stress marker 3-NT and neurotrophin-3 levels in ASD.”

    This is what was being found, in those autopsied ASD brains.  The smoking gun, so to speak.  This is from the Harvard study.    Notice, the parts of the brain effected where associated with the speech processing, sensory and motor coordination, emotional and social behavior, and memory

    It’s those deficits in our children, that make up the symptoms of Autism.  

    Six teams of specialist on the Mitochondria from here and across the world all had a teleconference with the CDC.  They were telling the CDC that Mitochondria problems 
    were not rare at all they said;     

    “in fact one in 50,may have the nuclear DNA for Mitochondria problems”  and with that in mind the possibilities for Autism then are staggering”   

    The CDC was informed something is causing the Mitochondria to be pushed stretched far beyond it’s metabolic reserves.  They then suggested, to the CDC that vaccines can do that.   Then they said;

    “under no circumstances are you to do nothing in this,the clock is ticking and we will turn over what we have found to the public”

    One researcher on the call, was amazed at how well the CDC took it that their vaccines were being found to be implicated in Autism. 

    Shortly after that meeting, the crap hit the fan about Hannah Poling Dr.Polings daughter that got
    9 vaccines 2 days later Bam! Autism.  

    The CDC Dir. already knew, they were told that Mitochondria disorders are not rare at all.    

    She put on a press conference, and lied straight faced without flinching.  Her words, after knowing what she knew were shocking.  Dir. Dr. Gerberding words were, the following.

    You can’t compare Hannah, to other children with Autism.        For, she” Hannah” had a very Rare Mitochondria disorder. That turned into Autism like symptoms.        The researchers, the CDC met with.   Told them, that Mitochondria disorders were turning into Autism.  Not! as the Dir. of the CDC said.   Autistic, symptoms!  

    They said, with Mitochondria problems at 1 in 50, the possibility’s for Autism then are staggering!

    It appears, that they were right. The  CDC  just  recently released the numbers and they truly are staggering.            Especially, when one is considers the cost at 6 million for each child effected. 

    1 in 50 children, and 1 31 boys are now effected by Autism. 

    This is total disregard, for our childrens health. Why is this magnitude, of total incompetence not being considered as Terrorism? or for that matter TREASON?. The CDC Dir. lying to the American public is unacceptable,and it is a National disgrace.    

    This Nation, has truly become the laughing stock.  By not following all the other developed 
    Nations lead.   Nations that has Banned all Thimerosal.  

    Although the NIH had a Thimerosal Mercury removal day.   They even had a mascot, that was telling all the labs how Toxic Thimerosal was.  And they needed to remove it, but it’s still safe to inject into  baby’s and children in as much as 160 times what the  EPA  says is the Standard for Liquid Hazardous Waste for Mercury.  200 ppb is the EPA Standard for Liquid Hazardous Waste for Mercury.   
        
    I cannot believe that anyone, could defend this absolute stupidity.   Again, God reserves the right to make vessels of Honor and dishonor.       Just like there were was people, that
     defended the Nazi’s.  Vessels of dishonor, defend the scumb that has disabled a generation of children.   All, for the greater Greed.  

    • Heraldblog

      Joe, tell us about how autism has declined in the nations that have banned thimerosal.

    • mplo

      I don’t believe that anybody could defend your stupidity, ccdaddy!  Autism is something that takes place in utero, during fetal developoment.  It’s NOT caused by the vaccines!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

    Heraldblog, Debate me in a public place.  

    • Heraldblog

      You’d better clear that with the orderlies, first.

      • http://www.facebook.com/people/Joe-Harris/100002141368238 Joe Harris

        Let it be known,that Heroldblog. Cannot defend, his words in this all so 
        important issue.  

        We can do it right here, I ask a question, and you have to answer it.       No more writing something, and then only answering what you want.      

        No more, of the if you cannot answer, you attack someone personally.

        I will abide, by the same rules.

  • Heraldblog

    “I almost lost a brother in the late 50s several hours after he received the pertussis vaccine and was medically brought back.”

    The incubation period of b. pertussis is seven to ten days.

    • Richard

      so..and your point is?… Is this another one of your non sequiturs? 

    • Heraldblog

      Just filling in the blanks on your unconfirmed anecdote.

  • Vax_Choice_Human_Right

    Official numbers from Europe: 8,499 cases of measles in Europe from March 2012 to February 2013. No deaths. Seven serious complications (acute measles encephalitis) = 0.0008% chance of complication.

    from: http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications/Publications/communicable-disease-threats-report-4-may-2013.pdf

    Measles can be dangerous if not properly managed. For example, fever reducing meds and/or chilling the patient can lead to bad outcomes. 

    Also, measles is almost always more dangerous in teens and adults than in children. The French experience in 2008-2010 demonstrated this to us, with three deaths: age 12, 18 and 23 yrs. 

    from: http://www.eurosurveillance.org/ViewArticle.aspx?ArticleId=19656

    • lynneb

      7 cases of acute measles encephalitis is a complication rate of 0.08%. And that is not the only possible complication. You are also leaving out deafness, pneumonia, and worst of all, the unknown number of later deaths from SSPE, almost all of which happen to children who catch measles before they are 2. All of which happen at a complication rate literally thousands of times higher than the level of complication from MMR.

      That you have a very poor grasp of math and are cherrypicking your facts and ignoring everything that is inconvenient is precisely why you are a bad source of “information” on this.

  • frida Spoiling

    how can your child  get sick  from un vaccinated kids >> if   your kid is vaccinated.  isnt that what you think the vaccinations do …protect you  ??? ..sounds like people arent sure if they work ..either they work .. and you will be protected..or they dont work and     un vaccinated  kids will get him sick ,,make up your minds …let the   un vaccinated alone ..  i talked to a woman in a church where none of her congregation was vaccinated .. neither she or her  un vaccinated congregation or their families got ANY of the so called childhood diseases..possibly those vaccinations cause them ….lets study that !

  • IamThinking

    I haven’t seen any comments about the herd effect and how that is basically a myth when it comes to vaccines. The herd effect only works when people have gotten the disease and people build up an immunity not from 90% or more of the population being inoculated. The community at large has never had 90% vaccination rates, and yet the herd effect persists.

    • Heraldblog

       You don’t understand herd immunity.

  • spoonerpurple

    what would the sickness they would be getting after they have been vaccinated ?

  • spoonerpurple

    immunizations are a gazillion dollar industry..the industry even has the power what is taught in med school….yes formaldehyde.. is produced in the very smart body and it knows just how much it needs  so why give it more  …lots of other drugs are produced in the body too. like DMT. and it knows just how much it needs .  There is also alot of crap in vaccines with harmful side effects.  that are not in the body so to say what is in the body is foolish . we are talking of poison  “they” say so themselves . funny how the Amish dont get vaccinated and dont get diseases or Autism…cant admit that can ya ..or the law suits will be uncontrollable ..that can never be admitted. what about all the churches that dont practice vaccination and dont get diseases or even chickenpox. or Autism ..I talked to 3 churches ….they wouldent keep doing something that harms then …all we want is the choice ..and i choose NO..and NO for my family….more and more doctors that are getting educated on their own on it and have seen too many tragedies. themselves have come to their own conclusion from EXPERIENCE…  that these immunizations..are harmful.  

    • Heraldblog

       Spooner, can you cite an authoritative source or study which concludes that “the Amish dont (sic) get vaccinated and dont (sic) get diseases or Autism?”

      A 10-b infant has more CH2O in its bloodstream that what is included in any five vaccines combined. There is no evidence that the miniscule amount used in vaccines causes any harm. There is evidence, however, that vaccine CH2O crosslinks with proteins, rendering it unavailable for absorption into the bloodstream.It’s a remarkably fast process.

      This is the part when you change the subject.

    • mplo

      Oh, boy, spoonerpurple and Robert12Disqus…it seems as if both of you are so much more willing to take a chance with your child developing a horrible childhood disease that could permanently cripple him/her, if not kill the kid outright.   I hate to burst your bubbles, but there’s a far greater chance of a kid dying or becoming permanently disabled from horrible childhood diseases than the so-called vaccine-related autism that you so believe in.  The so-called “connection” between vaccines and autism has already been de-bunked and that ship has sailed.

  • Richard

    An excellent conversation was broadcast last night on the Progressive Commentary Hour on http://www.prn.fm — to be rebroadcast on Pacifica stations — to critique the fallacies in Art Caplan’s vaccine police state and mandatory vaccination, and Paul Offit’s dogmatic crusade to limit vaccine exemptions. Guests included Prof. Mary Holland from NY Univ Law School, Robert Krakow (former Narcotics Bureau Chief or Manhattan’s District Attorney and one of the country’s leading attorneys on vaccine injury cases), attorney Alan Phillips (author of the Authorative Guide to Vaccine Legal Exemptions) and pediatric physician Dr. Toni Bark. the show can be streamed or downloaded on PRN’s archives under Progressive Commentary Hour.  

  • mplo

    Lee;  It’s very obvious that there are lots of people who’d just as soon see the United States as a whole revert back to third-world status, when tons of children were either killed or permanently incapacitated to some degree or other by such illnesses as tetanus, whooping cough, diphtheria or all those other communicable diseases.  It’s sad, really.  

  • Robert12Disqus

    i wonder if art would be so kind as to explain the adjuvants added to vaccines and why vaccinations are good when such poison is added to them?  
    perhaps he will be less likely to sue because as a bioethicist, he should know that taking adjuvant poisons are not good for anyone and that his lawsuit may turn against him and send him to pauperville as well as the one attempting to sue an unvaccinated person…
    the lawsuits would actually favor the unvaccinated and perhaps shed more light on the cockroach industry of vaccinations.

  • Punky Powergal

    If parents of unvaccinated children should be held liable for illness and outbreaks of disease, then the vaccine corporations and doctors should likewise be able to be held liable for all vaccine induced injuries & deaths!

    Unfortunately most people do not know that UNLIKE companies in ANY other industry, pharmaceutical companies are forbidden from being sued for vaccination induced injuries and deaths!!

    If someone is injured or killed by a defective toy or some other defective product they can sue. If someone gets sick or hurt or killed by a particular food at a restaurant or from the grocery store, they can sue.

    However, if someone is injured or killed by a vaccine, they are prohibited from being able to sue the corporation who made/sold the vaccine or doctors who administered it for the injuries or deaths that have resulted. Thanks to a 1986 federal law, vaccine corporations and those who administer vaccines are granted full blanket immunity from any criminal prosecution or other litigation involving vaccines!!

    They cannot have it both ways! Either EVERYONE (vaccine corporations & doctors For vaccine injuries as well as the unvaccinated for outbreaks of disease) is responsible OR then NOBODY is! It’s one or the other — they cannot have their cake and eat it too!!

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151712301067931

    • mplo

      That’s because the vaccines are not known to cause the kind(s) of injuries that you’ve mentioned, Punky Powergal!

      • Punky Powergal

        Actually they DO, Mplo! That is why the federal government has paid out over $3 billion IN TAXPAYER MONEY to victims of vaccine injuries and vaccine-induced deaths. If you don’t believe me just Google the “Hannah Poling” case (and Hannah’s father is a neurologist!) and the Bailey Butler case which are just a couple of the hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands) of cases where the government has ADMITTED that vaccines caused those injuries, and paid out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more!) in compensation in each case!! Meanwhile, the big Pharma industry gets off scot free with BILLIONS in profit, and the ALREADY STRUGGLING TAXPAYERS have to foot the bill for not only the compensation but also, the lifelong care of vaccine injured people, who will never be able to to support themselves, have a job, or in some/many cases, even live independently!!

      • Punky Powergal

        Actually they DO, Mplo!

        That is why the federal government has paid out over $3 billion IN TAXPAYER MONEY to victims of vaccine injuries and vaccine-induced deaths.

        If you don’t believe me just Google the “Hannah Poling” case (and Hannah’s father is a neurologist!) and the Bailey Butler case which are just two of the hundreds upon hundreds (if not thousands) of cases where the government has ADMITTED that vaccines caused those injuries, and paid out tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars (or more!) in compensation in each case!!

        Meanwhile, the big Pharma industry gets off scot free with BILLIONS in profit, and the ALREADY STRUGGLING TAXPAYERS have to foot the bill for not only the compensation but also, the lifelong care of vaccine injured people, who will never be able to to support themselves, have a job, or in some/many cases, even live independently!!

        WAKE UP!!

        Stop being such a blind and ignorant sheep brainwashed by the biased pHARMa-funded mainstream media propaganda!!

  • Animlnitr8

    “If your kid gets the measles, and remember public health officials are getting very very good at tracing outbreaks to their source, and makes my kid sick (can happen since vaccine is not 100% effective), my newborn baby die (newborns can’t benefit from vaccines) or my wife miscarry (fetuses are at especially high risk), then shouldn’t I be able to sue you for the harm you have done?”
    Wrong question and wrong target, Art. He should want to be able to sue the pHARMaceutical industry for destroying maternal antibodies that would protect vulnerable infants.

  • mplo

    No, Richard Gale!  Why  don’t YOU cease and desist in YOUR ignorance and recognize that your attitude is totally irresponsible when it comes to the subject of vaccines and the protection of children from deadly or disabling illnesses.

  • naugiedoggie

    Why talk about a bunch of hypothetical nonsense about boundary cases?  I just was watching an old rerun of Frontline the other day.  A 6-week old baby ended up in hospital with whooping cough, because her older brother contracted the germ from an unimmunized classmate in his school.  The baby didn’t die, but was extremely ill, and might have died, had not one of the doctors in the hospital ER recognized the symptoms, and prescribed the proper treatment.  

    This baby’s illness was entirely preventable and 100% the responsibility of the parents who chose not to immunize their son.

    I note, also, that in the Frontline episode, parents who do not immunize their children specifically denied that they had any responsibility for what might happen to somebody else’s kids, should those kids contract an illness from children who had not been immunized.  They absolutely do not care what happens to anybody else’s kids.

    The only way to bring these irresponsible parents into line with communal decency is to use the hammer of the law.  Either:  sue them and make them pay for damages; or make immunization a requirement for using any public facilities — schools, recreational programs, universities, everything.

  • Smoak

    It’s not my problem your child is vaccinated they are safe remember LMAO

  • Mike

    I hope I one day meet Art Caplan, and during our exchange he coughs or sneezes. I will call my lawyer immediately. Idiot.

    Does the pollen from the trees in my neighbors yard entitle me to sue them to have the trees cut down?

    Can I sue Troy-Bilt when I get hay fever from cutting grass with their mowers?

  • Laurie Waters

    It’s amazing how attitudes have changed over the years. When I was young in the 1950′s my mother made me and my sister go over and play with the neighbor kid who had measles, to make sure I got it. This was a very common practice at the time. I got very sick, and still carry the scars today. But I also grew up to be a scientist working in risk management in nuclear issues. Risk has two parts – consequence, and frequency. I hear so much in this debate about fear of consequence, but virtually nothing about how frequent these consequences are. What is the frequency of adverse consequence from a particular vaccine? 10%? 1%? .0001%? Nobody is talking about this and how these hard facts should influence on vaccination decisions.

    • lynneb

      Or, if you were at all interested in the science, you could go to the CDC pages and *look it up*. The risk of serious adverse effects of vaccines are less than 1 in 1 million, as opposed to the risks of disease, which range from a few in a thousand to as high as 50%, depending on the disease and the demographic. So, what you are doing here is using apathy (can’t be bothered to find out if the information even exists) to excuse a paranoid belief that “no-one talks about this.” Don’t do that.

  • Alex Sack

    Art Caplan is a fat man who has put his personal eating issues in the lap of the general public and should be jailed for his outsized carbon footprint AND the selfish and dangerous burden he has placed on society via his imminent excessive medical needs. He has to be held accountable. In other news: I am putting together a class action lawsuit against God for murdering trillions upon trillions of people. Who would like to join? Lookin to outlaw cars, too. Too many needless deaths. I’m ok w/ nuclear arsenals, tho. Society needs them for the greater good.

  • Jane Doe

    Yes. Let us chip away at the constitution, one vaccine refusal parent at a time. There are risks inherent in life. One is catching contagious diseases. If Art Caplan is so concerned about newborn exposure, surely we should be suing the parents of the newborn for taking their children out in public, or allowing contact with anyone but the mother, as they are taking an immuno-comromised child out and wilfully expsing him/her….that sounds like child endangerment to me.

    *end sarcastic rant*

    And, yes, my children are vaccinated.

    • lynneb

      Jacobson v. Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11 (1905): it is constitutional for a state to compel vaccination, because freedom does not mean the untrammeled right to endanger other people.

      From the judgement in the above case:
      “We come, then, to inquire whether any right given, or secured by the Constitution,
      is invaded by the statute as interpreted by the state court. The defendant
      insists that his liberty is invaded when the State subjects him to fine
      or imprisonment for neglecting or refusing to submit to vaccination; that
      a compulsory vaccination law is unreasonable, arbitrary and oppressive,
      and, therefore, hostile to the inherent right of every freeman to care for
      his own body and health in such way as to him seems best; and that the execution
      of such a law against one who objects to vaccination, no matter for what
      reason, is nothing short of an assault upon his person. But the liberty
      secured by the Constitution of the United States to every person within
      its jurisdiction does not import an absolute right in each person to be,
      at all times and in all circumstances, wholly freed from restraint. There
      are manifold restraints to which every person is necessarily subject for
      the common good. On any other basis organized society could not exist with
      safety to its members. Society based on the rule that each one is a law
      unto himself would soon be confronted with disorder and anarchy. Real liberty
      for all could not exist under the operation of a principle which recognizes
      the right of each individual person to use his own, whether in respect of
      his person or his property, regardless of the injury that may be done to
      others. This court has more than once recognized it as a fundamental principle
      that “persons and property are subjected to all kinds of restraints
      and burdens, in order to secure the general comfort, health, and prosperity
      of the State; of the perfect right of the legislature to do which no question
      ever was, or upon acknowledged general principles ever can be made, so far
      as natural persons are concerned.” [...previous case citations] we said: “The possession and enjoyment
      of all rights are subject to such reasonable conditions as may be deemed
      by the governing authority of the country essential to the safety, health,
      peace, good order and morals of the community. Even liberty itself, the
      greatest of all rights, is not unrestricted license to act according to
      one’s own will. It is only freedom from restraint under conditions essential
      to the equal enjoyment of the same right by others. It is then liberty regulated
      by law.”

      A person who receives a vaccination but for whom the vaccine does not work, has nevertheless taken all reasonable steps both to protect him/herself and to stop being a disease vector. A person who refuses vaccines — especially on the basis of myth and paranoid conspiracy theory, rather than as a result of actual medical evidence — is refusing to take that step to protect health. They are responsible for that failure, and recognition of that is absolutely Constitutional.

  • Brenda

    Yes. I don’t want my kid going to school with a bunch of unvaccinated kids.

    • Richard Gale

      and i dont want my child attending school with your likely ADHD-riddled kid from being over-poisoned by vaccines

  • chrisalien

    Biggest load of rubbish….remember if your child is vaccinated then they ARE IMMUNE. Its the unvaccinated child at risk not the vaccinated. So if your vaccinated child gets sick, it actually means it was caused by the vaccine. WHY CANT PEOPLE GET THEIR HEADS AROUND THIS FACT.

  • Chuck

    Absolutely, parents should be liable and held accountable for the end results of the choices they made. We do not live in bubbles. Your unscientifically back opinion is not more valuable than the life of my newborn.

  • lex

    I myself had measles , chickenpox and I’m healthy. So did many of my peers and we never grew up autistic kids. I grew up with kids who’s mother drank and smoked during pregnancy, and they are productive citizens in spite of their mothers bad choices.
    My two boys were meeting all their milestones until their vaccines. My oldest is 29 and in a group home where all his peers and younger 95% autistic. The older residents none but MR and CP. The answer is in plain view. I’m not tottaly against vaccinations but the wee ones are getting something to the tune of 30 before age 2. All those neurotoxins have to be playing a part in this scourge. 2+2 still equals 4.

    Just like mafia science said smoking was fine, the same with vaccines. They’re killing our kids. So before the attacks begin on my statement, a big FU to the industry and their boot licking Stepford wives. A whole generation of children destroyed by arrogance and sycophancy. You all better have a bug out plan if society breaks down, because there is a conga line of people who want will hang you.

  • Cinnamon Chestnut

    absolutely the parents should be help responsible — especially if a baby dies, a woman miscarries. this author is right about legal implications. these losers don’t get to say mea culpa and take their germy kid home. parents are supposed to do what is best for their children. and where is the health dept with all this? if your child isn’t vaccinated, they don’t go to public school; they sure don’t go to college without the mmr vaccination.

  • Jen

    Lets just say “hypothetically”, you are willing to **intentionally** expose your unvaccinated child to Measles because you think it is in their best interest despite being told of ramifications. And what if that child’s cousin had cancer & a bone marrow transplant? What then? If you intentionally spread disease, shouldn’t you be held liable? I’m not talking about just not vaccinating, I mean not vaccinating and willingly exposing…

  • Zen

    A recent peer reviewed article indicated an interesting finding: reasoning and logic with people with an established antivaccine mindset… you can talk to them until your face is blue abd it woukdnt do a single thing. But I’m gonna give it a shot anyways. I used to do research in autism when I was an undergraduate. From a molecular stand point, there is evidence that autistic patients have neurons that are arranged in different, more disorganized manner compared to typical. Brain and head growth trajectory are also different for autistic patients compared with controls. If a few IM vaccine injection, lets say mmr which consists of love atteunuated viruses, can somehow change a person’s growth trajectory before the substance was ever injected, and also completely modify neuronal bundling in the CNS, then this is beyond miraculous.

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