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Friday, September 21, 2012

Author Says We’re All Moochers

A recent poll shows 59 percent of voters felt Mitt Romney unfairly dismissed almost half of Americans as victims, but 41 percent felt he was making an important point — that too many Americans are “takers,” draining the economy, and not enough are “makers.”

In a Time Magazine cover story entitled “One Nation on Welfare,” journalist Michael Grunwald wrote (before Romney’s comments) about “takers and makers,” reminding us just how much all Americans take from the government.

He gives his own life as an example:

I wake up in subsidized housing. I throw on a T-shirt made of subsidized cotton, brush my teeth with subsidized water and eat cereal made of subsidized grain. Soon the chaos begins, two hours of pillow forts, dance parties and other craziness with two hyper kids and two hyper Boston terriers, until our subsidized nanny arrives to watch our 2-year-old. My wife Cristina then drives to her subsidized job while listening to the subsidized news on public radio. I bike our 4-year-old to school on public roads, play tennis on a public court.

Guest:

  • Michael Grunwald, senior national correspondent for Time magazine and author of “The New New Deal: The Hidden Story of Change in the Obama Era”
Other stories from Friday's show

We welcome comments from all of our listeners. Post below. Please stay on topic and be civil. Comments may be moderated by us, but you are solely responsible for the content of your comments.

  • Planetvagabond

    Right on to Mr. Grunwald!  It is infuriating to hear right wing (and it is largely right wing) blowhards beat on the brow of the ’47%’ out there and not dig into the similar, and often larger “dependency” of middle and upper class individuals and corporations on tax breaks, tax credits, R&D subsidies, farm subsidies, etc., etc. that they (and I am a part of that “they”) take advantage of every day.  Get real!!  

  • David Martin

    If you live in NJ you certainly are NOT a taker.  NJ is ranked 50th for federal spending vs federal taxes.

    http://taxfoundation.org/article/federal-spending-received-dollar-taxes-paid-state-2005

    In NJ we pay and pay, but we have no representation.

  • Info

    I don’t know if there is an equivalency here as stated: “The left is right that everyone gets something from the government, while the right is correct that government does too much.”

    I know that when discussing partisan issues it’s fashionable to conclude that “both sides are right and the truth is in the middle”, but it seems to me that the statement attributed to the left is one of fact, while the one attributed to the right is one of opinion. Who decides which thing government does is part of the “too much”?

    • TinmanCarnival

       The people decide….or so we were supposed to be able to decide at one point.

  • Tncanoeguy

    Romney had no desire to unite this country, or wouldn’t know how to do so if he wanted to.  He’s too out of touch.

  • http://openid.aol.com/rlupodimare RAOUL

    What seems to be missing or perhaps I am not listening well from this debate which is linked to Mitt Romney’s 47% speech to his wealthy friends is this: I am retired, I have been working since I was 15 1/2 years old without a break except for four years in the military. I retired in 2008. During all these years I have been paying into a retirement program called Social Security and for Medicare. What is really interesting concerning this debate, is that I still pay federal and state taxes in the State of Oregon contrary to what Mitt would lead one to believe. Furthermore, if I withdraw money from my retirement account, the federal government automatically deducts 20% percent. At the end of the year the net of my withdrawal is added to my retirement and taxed on this new total. This new total is the basis used  by the state of Oregon to determine my quarterly tax payments. Here is the clincher, my state and Federal tax percentages I pay is more than the tax rate of Mitt Romeny and his friends pay. Yet according to Mitt Romney and his wealthy friends I am a burden to society…..some sort of free loader, yet, if one works on Wall Street as a day trader, mortgage banker, or are some sort of hedge fund, one believes he or she should pay little or no taxes…… that they should be guarantee a full retirement with golden parachutes, even when they screw up, that they need more deregulation and more tax breaks so that they can somehow (a myth) create jobs in America (another Romney right wing myth). I also have experience with the welfare system. There are times when one needs a little social help from their government, especially when ones job has been eliminated by such schemes at Bain Capital whom have ruined your income and retirement in order to pay themselves millions. It is a Romney myth (one of hundreds) that welfare is some sort of job for the jobless whom refuse to work. The real truth of this debate is the wealthy do not want to pay a fair tax that reflects their wealth by promoting phony propaganda that the poor, they manipulate, are the cause of Americas financial problems. The real facts to the baseless Romney fiction is this, it was not some poor American Mexican, Polish, Black, Norwegian, Finish, Swede, Frenchmen, or poor Texan who created the  financial messes on Wall Street that caused the so called financial mess for America and the rest of the planet. Yet Mitt Romeny never addresses the problem that Harvard, Yale, Princton, Wharton just to mention a few of the elite of higher education are graduating some of the most skilled thieves on the planet whom have no social alliance to anything except money. Really, we are graduating sociopaths from American universities. I suppose by the Romeny definition, he Mr. Romney is part of the alleged 47% problem. The last myth is the divide, not created by President Obama but created by Mitt Romney and his right wing bunch. Almost daily we are hear how the devision between the wealthy and the poor keeps expanding. I wonder how this anomaly happened Mitt?

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/D5VTJA4VOW7Y4U2TFOF64LSCQI M*rk

       And remember, Romney’s father was on welfare for a time as mentioned by Jon Stewart on The Daily Show.  So, his father was one of the 47%…

    • TinmanCarnival

       So lets just say everyone pays 19% regardless of how much or how little you make. Fair is fair so the poor can shut up and the rich can shut up. Maybe if everyone would open there eyes and vote libertarian, this country would miraculously fix itself. Or we can continue to sit on one side of the fence and throw blame rocks at each other until the other quits and finally allows the opponent to ruin the last remanence of a great nation.

      • Jaczar

        19% tax on someone who can barely, or not at all make ends meet, is outrageous. As is 19% on one who makes a million or more a year, evey year.

  • J Frog

    You didn’t build it.  No one works harder or smarter than anyone else so everyone produces the same and takes the same.  Success is an illusion.

  • theoneandonlywmb

    my favorite is the bumper sticker…..Politicians:  keep you hands of my Medicare!!

    I don’t think people, regardless of party affiliation realize how much government does for each of us.  

    If you want to see the influence of government on our everyday lives, go to a small city budget meeting.  As the council tries to balance their budget by eliminating services, comments from the public invariably begin with “I need…”  

    Most voters do not think about how much they need the government and the allowances given by the government.

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DPKS3HUGQBPILPIU7IVZSHGXLI Robert_N

      In a truly democratic system, it’s what “The People” do collectively for themselves. Cooperative actions/provisions can have economy-wide benefits and foster more opportunity for “makers”. Most government programs should be assessed based on whether they’re an investment in society and quality of life, and others on what ‘society’ considers to be the ethical and moral (like ensuring granny’s medical care regardless of her finances).

    • Dave S

      “off my Medicare”

  • ziggy p

    Interesting topic.  He has many good points.  Failed to mention (from what I heard) that the mortgage interest deduction and many others are phased out for those making a certain amount, in this case over $166K. Millionaires do lose out on a lot of tax breaks.  Just saying.  I make 50k per year.  No reason to take away my deduction.  I am a mooch!

    • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_DPKS3HUGQBPILPIU7IVZSHGXLI Robert_N

      Yes, they lose out on some and benefit (directly or indirectly) from others. Last I heard, corporations are supposedly people too, and they get some of the fattest breaks that are then disproportionately passed on to millionaires. :-)

  • Dave S

     What the report and author failed to recognize is that all those freebies from the government are paid for by federal tax payers. So, to say we are all moochers is disingenuous. If I pay federal taxes, I AM PAYING for the roads, farm subsidies, etc. Just where do the author and reporter think this money comes from?
    These attacks on Romney’s comments are very one-sided, and as a result are very disappointing to me.
    I’d appreciate a discussion that covers both sides of what is an important issue for our country’s future.

  • Kris Prinzing

    At the core of what we are talking about is the crux of it all, too: human beings succeed as a species when they share with one another. That is why this value is enshrined within religious, spiritual and wisdom traditions.  We are a social species, and what enables us to succeed as a species is our capacity to share with one another, take care of one another and protect one another.  Selfishness is bad for everyone.  How societies navigate this is defining in terms of our culture as well as our long-term likelihood of surviving. 

  • Not One of the 47%

    If the government takes $100 of my money in taxes, and I “benefit” from a 2-cent subsidy on my t-shirt, it does not mean that I am a moocher.  What it means is that the government effectively took $99.98 of my money in taxes to spend/waste/redistribute as it sees fit.

    Until my *net* tax burden is negative, I am not a moocher — I am paying for everything I get.  I guarantee all of the subsidies passed through cotton, grains, water, etc … do not add up to how much I pay in taxes.

    I am happy to pool some of my money with other citizens and pay for things that benefit us as a whole and that are more efficiently and effectively administered by a government — things such as roads, fire departments, police departments, and national defense.  However, my retirement and medical care is not one of them.

    I have worked a long time and paid a lot in social security and medicare taxes, but contrary to how the social security system was sold at the time it was instituted, my money is in no way any kind of investment — it is simply a redistributive tax, pure and simple.  Money flushed down the toilet.  I would never advocate taking social security or medicare benefits away from those who have paid into the system, but the time has come to put an end to the pyramid scheme.  Stop payroll taxes, make the system part of the general budget, continue benefits for everyone currently receiving them, and pro-rate benefits for all future beneficiaries based on number of years paid in.  Then it will fade away into the dustbin of history where it belongs without penalizing those forced to pay into it for so long.

    Then there is welfare income redistribution.  I agree that it is in the public interest to have some safety net to help people when they face extenuating circumstances; however, we have developed an entitlement culture that is disgusting.  There are multiple generations of families that believe they are entitled to subsidized housing, food, etc., just because the government is there to give it to them.  Short term assistance is one thing — long term assistance belongs in the realm of private charities, where there will be an incentive to work with these people and get them working as soon as possible rather than just saying “here’s your check”.  Private charities would have an incentive to help people off their roles to preserve their budget, government welfare agencies have an incentive to get people *on* their roles in order to preserve and increase their budget.

  • http://profile.yahoo.com/GFOC4E5MUJV3N27XXSCEYQHPY4 LeQuickBrownFox

    Grunwald built his whole argument on one huge false premise: The government owns your money, and if you get a tax credit, refund, deduction in your tax liability, etc., you are being “subsidized” by the government. How sweet of the government, eh? We must all be beholden to the government for not taking more money away from us that rightfully is not ours to keep. Why don’t you ask him “What is government money?”

  • http://twitter.com/wwwcash Criostoir

    a dollar bill doesn’t discriminate, welfare is welfare regardless of the recipient, bank bail out or food stamps.

  • JimbusSedley

    There are two serious problems with the author’s thinking, and it appears to have been beyond Robin Young’s capacity to raise them. 

    First, there is a conflation of government services (of any sort) with subsidies and entitlements.  Clear thinking on the topic of government spending should make distinctions.  Road-building is different from farm subsidies is different from social security.  The author is right in a general sense to remind us that makers/takers is an oversimplified dichotomy, but his thinking on government spending is too muddy to be of much help beyond this simple observation.

    Second, the author apparently assumes that every cent that someone earns belongs to the government rather than to the worker/citizen.  How else could he view tax deductions as subsidies?  In fact tax money does not “naturally” belong to the government, so any lesser amount it levies on someone is not actually a subsidy.  The author speaks as if the government is giving something that it owns to the taxpayer, when this is not so.  Clearly the various examples that the author uses (mortgage interest deduction, child-care deduction, etc.) are very much worth debating.  Are they useful?  Are they fair?  Debate them as policy, yes, but his underlying assumptions are statist.

  • Duffy Johnson

    Can we all agree that basic public infrastructure-roads, streets, bridges, the electrical grid, sewer systems, etc.-is best managed by our governments that we all support through tax revenue? An interstate can’t be privatized.  It just isn’t practical or efficient.  Private enterprise is best suited to oversee the exchange of goods and services, but when it fails to serve the population in a critical way, such as retirement insurance (Social Security) or  health care, our government is obligated to step in and fix the problem. I don’t want our government running my life, at all.  But I do want it to do what it can and SHOULD to best serve the entire country.  There is nothing shameful or un-American about it.  We have the richest and most powerful entity on the face of the earth, in the history of the world, at our disposal.  Let it do what it needs to do.

  • Donna Nmagnuson

    if you read the article this guy implies that every dime I dont give the gov. is a subsidy. Which implies that every dime I make is the gov. and they have the right ton let me keep some. Wake up America. It is to late for 51% of us I fear.

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